What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

[Fedya]

I've been playing go for 15 years, and have been stuck bouncing between KGS 6k and 7k for years. I think once I got promoted to 5k for about half a dozen games three or four years ago; a couple of times I've been demoted to 8k but the last time was almost two years ago.

It seems as though nothing I try works: my moyos get invaded; any attempts to deal with my opponents' moyos end in disaster. My opponents pincer me and I end up with a weak group; I pincer my opponents and I end up with a weak group if not two. I constantly fall behind early. And so on.

I go over my games, but that clearly doesn't help because it's like the blind leading the blind. I do problems, but the problems I do don't look like the positions that show up in my games. I've also been going through Attack and Defense, but that obviously isn't helping much, either. There are a few certain situations I've discovered I've been making mistakes (in the three-space jump where one stone is on the third line and the other on the fourth, I'd been playing the wrong way, for example), but following up from the first move is where things start to go wrong.

What on earth am I supposed to do differently?

[DrStraw]

Find yourself a mentor. Play on DGS instead of real time and play unrated and discuss them with your mentor during the game. I have acted as mentor like this for many people and the vast majority have improved.

[Boidhre]

I agree strongly with what DrStraw said (and have benefited from him giving me the time on DGS for games). Playing stronger players regularly will quickly expose the consistent mistakes in thinking that you make. I think watching much stronger players play can be very helpful as well, if you're actively trying to read sequences in the game out or see why a particular move was responded to etc. You can get ideas of how to throw around stones from this that you can experiment with in your games.

[Bill Spight]

A few questions.

Why did you play S-04?

Why did you play H-13?

Why did you play Q-17?

Why did you play N-15?

Why did you play O-18?

Why did you play K-15?

[oren]

I'll agree with get a teacher.... many pros have lessons, there is the Yunguseng Dojang and Guo Juan's group lessons all online. Any of those will help you get stronger.

[hl782]

play stronger people - on even matches. sooner or later, you'll catch up.

[DrStraw]

I'll agree with get a teacher.... many pros have lessons, there is the Yunguseng Dojang and Guo Juan's group lessons all online. Any of those will help you get stronger.

I don't agree with pro lesson at 5k. There are plenty of amateurs in the lower dan range willing to play and help.

[EdLee]

I don't agree with pro lesson at 5k.
There are plenty of amateurs in the lower dan range willing to...

unlurk

Huge can of worms.

I believe someone, somewhere had done some good analysis/analyses of software engineers/programmers. They found that the top programmers vs. the OK ones can have a productivity difference of a factor of 10 (or was it 30?).
( Charles Simonyi ).

They must have done something similar with teachers.

It's too bad we have dan rankings, titles, and 4-digit ratings for pros' tourney performance, but not for their teaching levels.
( Mr. Kitani Minoru, Mr. Fujisawa Hideyuki )

Top-level teachers are amazing -- we should feel so lucky to meet even just one such person in a lifetime.

Collorary: the worst teachers are also really, genuinely, bad. Just awful.
( The Dunning–Kruger effect strikes again: Those who are clueless they're bad, and continue to "help" and "teach" others. )

Thus the can of worms.

relurk

[DrStraw]

I don't agree with pro lesson at 5k.
There are plenty of amateurs in the lower dan range willing to...

unlurk

Huge can of worms.

I believe someone, somewhere had done some good analysis/analyses of software engineers/programmers. They found that the top programmers vs. the OK ones can have a productivity difference of a factor of 10 (or was it 30?).
( Charles Simonyi ).

They must have done something similar with teachers.

It's too bad we have dan rankings, titles, and 4-digit ratings for pros' tourney performance, but not for their teaching levels.
( Mr. Kitani Minoru, Mr. Fujisawa Hideyuki )

Top-level teachers are amazing -- we should feel so lucky to meet even just one such person in a lifetime.

Collorary: the worst teachers are also really, genuinely, bad. Just awful.
( The Dunning–Kruger effect strikes every time: Those who are clueless they're bad, and continue to "help" and "teach" others. )

Thus the can of worms.

relurk

But is the Return on Investment worth it at the 5k level? I think not when compared to the ROI on finding a good amateur mentor. At the dan level I would agree with you, even though I have never used pro lessons myself.

[EdLee]

But is the Return on Investment worth it at the 5k level?

Clearly a personal value judgement call, isn't it.
One person's treasure is another's trash, and all that good stuff.

( Is it true that these identical discussions occur ad nauseam in other forums for chess lessons, piano lessons, tennis lessons, etc. ? )

[Go_Japan]

But is the Return on Investment worth it at the 5k level?

Clearly a personal value judgement call, isn't it.
One person's treasure is another's trash, and all that good stuff.

( Is it true that these identical discussions occur ad nauseam in other forums for chess lessons, piano lessons, tennis lessons, etc. ? )

I actually think one's ability to teach and mentor and adjust to the student's needs are quite valuable. Skill alone does not make a teacher or mentor. I don't mean to be too critical or call you out because I think you are probably one of the most active commentators on this site. I certainly wouldn't want you to take this the wrong way and stop. I think your comments are valuable and I really enjoy them. However, I often read your comments and know they are correct, but also know that the person you are telling won't really understand why your comments are correct. For me, the comments are fine because I am at the level where I can understand them or figure them out. For weaker players, though, it will be hard. I just noticed this in particular because you popped up doing comments on GoKibitz.

Just because someone knows the right answer doesn't necessarily mean they can explain it to someone else.

So, I personally would rather have a really good teacher, who knows what they know (and what they don't know) at the ama dan level who can adjust to my needs, then a super pro 9p who cannot explain anything that I can understand about particular positions.

Personally, I watch Guo Juan's lectures on the InternetGoSchool, which I find invaluable. I do the problems as well, and I have been improving. I find I can learn the material at my level.

[Kirby]

Fedya: If you want to get to 5k, maybe you should aim higher than 5k. Try to play as precise as a 2k player. Or a 1d player. Or maybe just try to play as precisely as possible.

Each move counts.

I like Bill's approach to answering this thread. Are there any moves you don't have good reasons for playing?

Just a few random thoughts...

[schawipp]

What on earth am I supposed to do differently?

There's usually plenty of different aspects in Go which can be studied and optimized, and I'm by far not the right person to give qualified advice. However I remember one sentence from my first introductory Go book (from Winfried Dörholt "Das japanische Brettspiel Go" in German language). At the end of the book there is a summary consisting of some general advices for beginners. In one of them he says something like "Be aware of bad shape, if you only could avoid playing the empty triangle this will already make you 5 stones stronger".

Thus, I would suggest that you check out for empty triangles in your recent games (including the most frappant example in the current game of ) and ask yourself if they were really required and if there were better options. The good thing about empty triangles is that they are easy to spot; thus it should be rather easy to get completely rid of them. And if Winfried Dörholt is right, this will make you a solid 2k.

[EdLee]

Hi Go_Japan,

You're preaching to the choir.

I agree with (probably) 99% of what you said.
That you feel the need to write it means perhaps you don't know where I stand (embedded in post 8 and numerous other threads over the years) which is self-referential to what you wrote. No problem.

[Go_Japan]

Hi Go_Japan,

You're preaching to the choir.

I agree with (probably) 99% of what you said.
That you feel the need to write it means perhaps you don't know where I stand (embedded in post 8 and numerous other threads over the years) which is self-referential to what you wrote. No problem.

Well, I am glad you are not sensitive about it.

@ Fedya

I made a review here and tried to answer your questions: http://eidogo.com/#DtPIGr3V
If I see you online, I will see if you want to play a teaching game. I am not too much stronger, but probably can help with a few things.