What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Create a study plan, track your progress and hold yourself accountable.
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Re:

Post by hyperpape »

EdLee wrote:I believe someone, somewhere had done some good analysis/analyses of software engineers/programmers. They found that the top programmers vs. the OK ones can have a productivity difference of a factor of 10 (or was it 30?).
( Charles Simonyi ).

They must have done something similar with teachers.
I went back and looked and found this: there are studies related to the 10x claim: http://www.ybrikman.com/writing/2013/09 ... -not-myth/. Here is a podcast I ran across awhile ago, but never watched, where someone discusses it as a "myth" http://blog.fogcreek.com/10x-programmer ... -bossavit/.

With regard to teachers: http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/05/19/te ... d-to-know/.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Knotwilg »

Hi Fedya

I'm going to answer your first comment in your game self review and then your starting message.

1. "When confronted with a joseki move I haven't seen before, I tend to struggle figuring out how to respond."

Joseki is the source of many bad habits, the worst of which is having the illusion we should be able to fall back on standard patterns most of the time.

In Go, about 99% of the time we are confronted with moves we haven't seen before in this particular situation. In those cases (so almost ALL cases) we must
a) think what we want to achieve (strategy)
b) see which moves are available for that purpose (technique)
c) find out if the move works (tactics/reading)

In this case your purpose may be:
- to avoid being surrounded
- to surround
- to connect
- to cut

These are the four fundamental strategic aims we nearly always pursue.

You chose to cut. According to me this was not the right choice. My choice would have been to try and surround White (04) and keep up the pressure, meanwhile making territory at the bottom. Another choice would have been to connect (S5) but it's too timid connecting on the second line in an area which you control. Cutting at this stage allows White to sacrifice one thing and make the other stronger while doing so.

The move that was available for cutting was the wedge. You inevitably suffer an atari and next White's choice where to connect. Your stones end up in a clumsy shape. This is not a great result. Did you read out these 3 moves and evaluate whether this is what you wanted? Are the tactics underdeveloped (i.e. should you become tougher in doing the actual reading) or do you have poorer positional judgment (i.e. should you learn more about efficiency, equivalence, flexibility ...)?

When White next descended instead of connecting either side of the wedge, you didn't cut. Instead you shifted strategy and decided to protect your territory in the corner.

Such a shift in purpose can be called for when the original strategy turns out to be disastrous, but such was not the case here. Needlessly shifting strategies midgear usually results in stones not cooperating very well.

Perhaps you descended because you wanted the second cut to work. But there are several things wrong with that thinking
1) White can still connect
2) White can still connect the other side and let you eat those 2 stones, making your investment quite big for such a meagre return

White chose to connect the poor side and you cut the big side and indeed, all turned out quite well.

So
- think about on your strategy: what do you want to achieve
- find a move that achieves this purpose
- work out the details
- stick to your objective unless it's clear that the objective was wrong or won't be reached

2. Your message seems to speak of low confidence or self esteem. I have observed many people who publicly lament their sucking at whatever craft they aspire. In a weird sense this is a way of nourishing the ego, but then a bad, negative ego. The bad ego prefers to excel at being worse than everyone else they know, rather than being mildly good. And this is preventing them to become better, which feeds the bad ego.

I've tried to convince such people that really, there is no reason why they should be so special to suck at Go/Table tennis/Music ... but I've hardly ever succeeded. The devil on the shoulder is very very strong and keeps whispering "you're no good, you're no good, you're exceptionally bad".

Let go of that devil. He's no good. You're not special in being bad. And letting him go, you WILL become better. Your Go will become better. Your ego might too. (but don't expect to become exceptionally good at go).
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Re:

Post by Knotwilg »

EdLee wrote:
But is the Return on Investment worth it at the 5k level?
Clearly a personal value judgement call, isn't it.
One person's treasure is another's trash, and all that good stuff.

( Is it true that these identical discussions occur ad nauseam in other forums for chess lessons, piano lessons, tennis lessons, etc. ? :) )


They do reoccur all over those places but whether this causes nausea is clearly a personal value judgment call :)
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by jeromie »

Fedya wrote:I do problems, but the problems I do don't look like the positions that show up in my games.

I don't think I've seen this move before, and when confronted with a joseki move I haven't seen before, I tend to struggle figuring out how to respond.



I'm not much stronger than you, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but these two comments together suggest that you may be going about studying in an unproductive manner. Most problem sets at our level are not intended to expose you to patterns that you will see in your games (some systematic treatments of tesuji or life and death are exceptions), but to give you practice with reading. Similarly, studying joseki should expose you to common shapes and a thoughtful evaluation of goal setting more than giving you set patterns to play (though we all fall into that to some extent). If you want to get stronger, you need to welcome those moments when you step outside of known patterns as an opportunity to put your reading, strategic evaluation, and understanding of shape to the test.

This isn't to say that the pattern recognition we gain by doing problems isn't helpful. They do help us recognize a strong shape we can work towards or weaknesses to avoid or exploit. Also, if we understand life and death well, we can settle a group quickly and confidently and avoid letting our opponent attack a weak group and make a large profit. This is one way those life and death problems help us with the proto-groups that don't often show up in the problem books.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Fedya »

Hmmm. A lot of you have given me a lot of things to think about. I'll respond to Bill Spight first.

Bill Spight wrote:A few questions. :)

:b13: Why did you play S-04?


I thought it secured the corner, and gave me a good result after :b15:

:b35: Why did you play H-13?


I thought I needed to jump out toward the center from my group, which still doesn't have any eyes after all.

:b59: Why did you play Q-17?


I expected white to respond at Q18, followed by R18, P18, S17, which I thought was good for Black. It probably is, which is why White didn't respond that way. :oops:

:b75: Why did you play N-15?

:b77: Why did you play O-18?


I didn't notice until after :b77: was on the board that I'd still only have one eye on the side. As for :b75:, it's terrible and I don't know why I didn't play anything better.

:b85: Why did you play K-15?

I thought I could get something out of one of the cuts at M16 or M14. It was only after :w88: that I noticed I've got a shortage of liberties in the capturing race at the top.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by hl782 »

Please don't take my comments the wrong way, but from what I see in your comments above - You think of reasonings per move but most of the time your reasonings are wrong.


This is why I think it's important to play stronger people, and get reviewed by stronger people. From your comments, you say 'I have no idea what to do'. 'I know this was a really bad move' - and yet you still play it. Stronger people are your guide to help pointing out your errors so that you can avoid those mistakes again.

Something that my teacher Justin told me was that each 'rank', is just equivalent of 1 stone. Aka, if you can cut out just 1 mistake out of your game permanently - you'll be a rank stronger.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Fedya »

Responding to Knotwilg's comments:
Knotwilg wrote:Hi Fedya

You chose to cut. According to me this was not the right choice. My choice would have been to try and surround White (04) and keep up the pressure, meanwhile making territory at the bottom. Another choice would have been to connect (S5) but it's too timid connecting on the second line in an area which you control. Cutting at this stage allows White to sacrifice one thing and make the other stronger while doing so.

The move that was available for cutting was the wedge. You inevitably suffer an atari and next White's choice where to connect. Your stones end up in a clumsy shape. This is not a great result. Did you read out these 3 moves and evaluate whether this is what you wanted? Are the tactics underdeveloped (i.e. should you become tougher in doing the actual reading) or do you have poorer positional judgment (i.e. should you learn more about efficiency, equivalence, flexibility ...)?

I thought I was going to get a good position. Either white save the stone closer to the side and winds up with a bunch of stones without much eye shape, or saves the one closer to the center and winds up with a floating eyeless group in the center.

When White next descended instead of connecting either side of the wedge, you didn't cut. Instead you shifted strategy and decided to protect your territory in the corner.

Such a shift in purpose can be called for when the original strategy turns out to be disastrous, but such was not the case here. Needlessly shifting strategies midgear usually results in stones not cooperating very well.

Perhaps you descended because you wanted the second cut to work. But there are several things wrong with that thinking
1) White can still connect
2) White can still connect the other side and let you eat those 2 stones, making your investment quite big for such a meagre return

White chose to connect the poor side and you cut the big side and indeed, all turned out quite well.

I would have connected that side too. Winding up with that eyeless bunch of stones in the center wouldn't have looked very appealing to me.

2. Your message seems to speak of low confidence or self esteem. I have observed many people who publicly lament their sucking at whatever craft they aspire. In a weird sense this is a way of nourishing the ego, but then a bad, negative ego. The bad ego prefers to excel at being worse than everyone else they know, rather than being mildly good. And this is preventing them to become better, which feeds the bad ego.

I've tried to convince such people that really, there is no reason why they should be so special to suck at Go/Table tennis/Music ... but I've hardly ever succeeded. The devil on the shoulder is very very strong and keeps whispering "you're no good, you're no good, you're exceptionally bad".

Let go of that devil. He's no good. You're not special in being bad. And letting him go, you WILL become better. Your Go will become better. Your ego might too. (but don't expect to become exceptionally good at go).

One of the things I find frustrating is that I'm doing the same things that work for my opponents, but somehow when I try them they don't work for me. :mad:
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Kirby »

Fedya wrote:One of the things I find frustrating is that I'm doing the same things that work for my opponents, but somehow when I try them they don't work for me. :mad:


Sorry to be blunt, but something either works or does not work. So either:
1. That thing that works for your opponents does not actually work - you didn't punish them like your opponents punish you.
2. You are not doing the same thing as your opponents. What is different in your case?

Maybe it's hard to answer these questions during a game, but that is what review is for.

So how about an example we can discuss? Give us a specific board position where some "thing" worked for your opponent. Give us a second one where that "same thing" didn't work for you.

Let's figure out why.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Uberdude »

Fedya, do you enjoy playing Go?
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Fedya »

Uberdude wrote:Fedya, do you enjoy playing Go?

Yes. And I do have games where I lose but still enjoy the experience. I think it was the first time I got to KGS 6k and tried my hand against 5k players, I had several games where my opponents played about as slowly as I do, I thought a lot, and still came up several points short. It felt like a good mental stimulation, even though I had lost.

By the same token, I'm taking part in a DGS tournament right now where I've got a couple of even games against stronger players. There's one with a 1k where I'm getting slaughtered, I think. I feel like I tried hard, but the 1k has had an answer for everything and I haven't had an answer for the things he's tried. There's another game with a player two stones stronger than I where he let me get what seemed like a bunch of territory, but when I try to count the territories I get the distinct impression I'm actually about 5 points behind. I'm trying to find moves to keep sente, and the biggest ones at that; we'll see whether it's enough.

What's frustrating is playing players of even strength, and again and again facing an uphill battle that doesn't feel like an even game at all.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Fedya »

Kirby:

I've actually got a game from the past week or so where my opponent invaded my moyo at a point I had no idea was a weakness, and the game quickly went downhill from there. I'll find the game in question, go over it again myself, and then post it here.

Edit:

Here's the game:

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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Bill Spight »

Fedya wrote:I've been playing go for 15 years, and have been stuck bouncing between KGS 6k and 7k for years. I think once I got promoted to 5k for about half a dozen games three or four years ago; a couple of times I've been demoted to 8k but the last time was almost two years ago.

It seems as though nothing I try works: my moyos get invaded; any attempts to deal with my opponents' moyos end in disaster. My opponents pincer me and I end up with a weak group; I pincer my opponents and I end up with a weak group if not two. I constantly fall behind early. And so on.


I am going to respond to your answers to my questions, but for now I will address your original post. :)

Assuming that your opponents are about the same strength as you, how can it be that what they try works against you, while what you try does not work against them? In that case, wouldn't they be stronger than you? If you constantly fall behind early, then you must be catching up later. :) For all your weaknesses, you have strengths, as well. I understand your frustration, but you often express pessimism about your game. Get some perspective. :)

It is likely the case that you are not playing up to yourself. Hardly anybody does. You are making mistakes that you know better than to make. In this game you overlooked the danger to your group in the top right. And, as you say in response to my question, "As for :b75:, it's terrible and I don't know why I didn't play anything better." I don't know how strong you are when you play up to yourself, but I would not be surprised if it is 5 kyu. If so, you can play as 5 kyu in a matter of weeks or months. I have told the story of how I went from 3 dan to 4 dan in 6 weeks, just by deciding to play at 4 dan level. OC, playing up to yourself is not so easy. If it were, everybody would do it. ;) (And I had been 3 dan for more than a year and a half. I doubt if I could have done it one year earlier.)

I go over my games, but that clearly doesn't help because it's like the blind leading the blind.


You have a point, and here is where getting a teacher could help. :) But you should also be able to learn from you own self review. If you are not, then maybe there are better ways to do reviews. (Unfortunately, reviews by better players do not always tell you how they reached their conclusions. Sometimes they are just expressing their opinions. ;)) IMO, thoroughness is a virtue in a review, and at your level that means analyzing relatively small regions of the board. It is important to play around with positions.

Also, why not review your games with your opponents? If they are better than you at invading moyos and you have made an unsuccessful invasion, ask them how you could have done better.

I do problems, but the problems I do don't look like the positions that show up in my games.


That is one reason that it is important to study your own games. :)

From what you say it seems like you start with some goal, such as attacking an opponent's stone or invading a moyo, but then you do not achieve a satisfactory result, even though your peers seem to do so against you. Taking that at face value, that suggests that your peers have learned some basic techniques that you have not. If so, there should be some basic problems that would address your shortcomings. These problems should be set in positions that you should be able to analyze thoroughly. (I don't mean in your head, I mean with a board and stones or a computer.) I have not seen the books myself, but I have heard good things about Graded Go Problems for Beginners. Get a thorough grounding in the basics. :)

Znosko-Borovsky gives some pertinent advice in his classic book, How Not to Play Chess which generalizes to go. A major point of his is to make a plan and to stick to it. He says that a poor plan well executed is better than a good plan poorly executed. Whether that is always so or not, it illustrates the importance of basic technique. Znosko-Borovsky also emphasizes analysis. He states: "Unless you analyse the position, you will achieve nothing." Now, analysis takes time, and you won't perform one for each move. Analyzing the whole go board three or four times is enough, as a rule. But you should also analyze local positions. Analysis precedes reading. For instance, in a life or death situation, where are potential eyes? Where are escape routes? Can some stones be sacrificed? What about shortage of liberties?

Bridge great Oswald Jacoby had a checklist for planning the play of a bridge hand. Let me adapt it for go, with the acronym, ACH. (Achtung!) ;)

Analyze. Analyze the whole board or a local position. Where are the strong and weak points? What are the possibilities for each player? What are the threats?

Count. Count points. Count liberties. Count eyes.

How? How can I achieve my objectives? Here is where reading comes in. The reading is informed by the previous analysis and counting. It is the how that allows you to execute your plan well. :)

To this mix let me add discipline. Tournament bridge players are big on discipline. Discipline helps you to play up to yourself. :) A lot of players wait until the position is difficult to start thinking. By then it may be too late. Discipline allows you to plan ahead and anticipate problems, also to create problems for your opponent. It allows you to keep your head and stick to your plan when the going gets tough. (And against a worthy opponent it will get tough. ;)) As Znosko-Borovsky says, making a plan, sticking to it, and carrying it out well will not guarantee victory, but if the victory goes to your opponent, he will have earned it. :)

Let me also add faith: Faith in yourself, faith in your plan, faith in your reading. OC, you will make mistakes. We all do. But faith will help you to play up to yourself. Self doubt leads to inconsistent play, which is guaranteed to include mistakes. Of two inconsistent plays, one (at least! ;)) must be a mistake. They can't both be right.
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Kirby »

Fedya, I assume you are referring to move 57. It's a nice move for your opponent to consider, I think, since your shape is loose in that area. White has several options for forcing, so there are a lot of variations to read out.

I'll admit, I don't know what is optimal for your response. You could consider a move like J16 if you want to try to kill, but I'm not sure if it works or not. You could also consider something like F17 To fix your loose shape on the left, force black to live inside your area, and make a wall.

It's true. It's difficult to know what is optimal (at least for me) here.

If black can unconditionally live here, it probably means that black played a good move. If nothing else, the move probably annoyed you.

Now that you've seen it, if the colors were reversed, would you be able to consider move 57 as a play against your opponent? If it annoyed you, it would probably annoy some of your opponents, too, right?

If the only thing you get from this game is to be able to consider a move like 57 and the followups in the next game you play, surely you've grown a little bit.

Or do you mean that this type of move won't occur to you?
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Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Post by Calvin Clark »

Hmm. (Comments on are on 1st game.)

White 8 confused you, but did you try to look it up? It's not as rare a move as you might think. One thing you might try is doing more database searches in pro games, even if it's just very local shapes. You may discover something interesting about your choice of black 9. :)

It appears you don't study joseki much. (My apologies, but it's pretty clear to me just from this one game.) May I ask why not?

You took 33 seconds to play move 81. I know that's a stressful position, but how's your reading? Would you play that move in a problem your were doing off the board? In general if you can add a couple of stones to your reading ability (easier said than done!) it will translate directly in improvement over the board. But there's a catch: you have to bring it and read over the board calmly as you would when doing a problem in private.

I agree with those who say a strong teacher can help, but you have to have a lot of time to help yourself, too.

Oh, and don't take advice from anyone weaker than 5 dan.

Of course, I am weaker than 5 dan, so you can safely ignore this advice.
Last edited by Calvin Clark on Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by EdLee »

don't take advice from anyone under 5 dan.
Of course, I am under 5 dan, so you can safely ignore this advice.
Depending on the phase of the moon and other magical factors, sometimes I'd say the same thing, but with 6 dan. :mrgreen:
Re: posts 8, 14; key words: can of worms. :)
A good eye is key:
Take good advice from anyone, regardless of their ratings (even from beginners).
Beware of poor advice, even from high dan pros.
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