I guess I don't value what I can't count. Or at least, I don't value it very much. Probably any worth I do put to influence/thickness is from experience and/or what people have told me (e.g. they have a wall, so prevent an extension).Shaddy wrote:You are winning by a lot after dying on the bottom. (One way to realize this is that you won by 30 points after making mistakes on the top right.) You really underestimate the value of thickness.
Kirby's Study Journal
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Some comments.Kirby wrote:Continuing the "output"... I played a game against KGS 1d today. I was an AlphaGo wannabe, and made a losing position early on. Also missed some simple stuff in the top right.
I got a big framework, and somehow got a lot of territory.
Here's the review, which I'll do again on Saturday:
Learning points from this:
1.) Don't be a wannabe without understanding what you want to be.
Main points:
1) Learn the net.
2) Keep emulating AlphaGo.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Net @ 49 is hilarious. I never even considered atari from that direction. I read out a couple of moves with the atari in game, and decided to go with it.
So in addition to undervaluing thickness, I need wider reading.
I guess solution to latter is go problems - don't do those much these days. Not sure about solution to valuing thickness... I guess I should try to play games and get thick to practice?
So in addition to undervaluing thickness, I need wider reading.
I guess solution to latter is go problems - don't do those much these days. Not sure about solution to valuing thickness... I guess I should try to play games and get thick to practice?
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Bill Spight
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
The reason that I saw the net almost instantly and just used reading to verify it -- it's a little tricky --, is Segoe's book, http://senseis.xmp.net/?TheBookToIncrea ... rengthAtGo .Kirby wrote:Net @ 49 is hilarious. I never even considered atari from that direction. I read out a couple of moves with the atari in game, and decided to go with it.
It could have come straight from the book. This game showed a couple of things about thickness. First, you have the ability to take advantage of it. Second, your opponent did not know how to play against it. Which is why you won by so much.I guess solution to latter is go problems - don't do those much these days. Not sure about solution to valuing thickness... I guess I should try to play games and get thick to practice?
These two things suggest that playing for thickness will increase your win rate. You still would have beat a more competent player. I made shodan in no small part because of my opponents' inability to play against thickness and influence. OC, if they had been better in that department, they may well have been stronger.
Usually, a change in style means incurring losses for a while. In this case, you probably would start winning more right away. The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Continuing the series of "output", I played against KGS 2k today. I was destroyed.
I made some pretty simple reading mistakes. So maybe I need to start doing more "input". It's been quite awhile since I really sat down to do some go problems. I think they might be called for.
Another problem may be my attitude. When I am playing KGS 2k, I felt that the win is already mine for his to take away. So I play pretty aggressively, even when things don't work. It's not a great attitude.
Here are a few comments:
Takeaways:
1. I need some "input". It's been awhile since I did go problems. I've been lazy at getting back to it, but I think this game warrants some practice. A lot of the simple positions I messed up on aren't that complicated, and probably the go problems I practice would be more difficult.
2. I should play the board and not the opponent. What works works, and what does not work does not work. Just because my opponent is a certain rank, it doesn't mean that what doesn't work works (though I guess, in reality, it sometimes does in the actual game). Besides, even if "what doesn't work works" against certain players, that kind of "output" is not that beneficial, since it reinforces my playing bad moves.
I made some pretty simple reading mistakes. So maybe I need to start doing more "input". It's been quite awhile since I really sat down to do some go problems. I think they might be called for.
Another problem may be my attitude. When I am playing KGS 2k, I felt that the win is already mine for his to take away. So I play pretty aggressively, even when things don't work. It's not a great attitude.
Here are a few comments:
Takeaways:
1. I need some "input". It's been awhile since I did go problems. I've been lazy at getting back to it, but I think this game warrants some practice. A lot of the simple positions I messed up on aren't that complicated, and probably the go problems I practice would be more difficult.
2. I should play the board and not the opponent. What works works, and what does not work does not work. Just because my opponent is a certain rank, it doesn't mean that what doesn't work works (though I guess, in reality, it sometimes does in the actual game). Besides, even if "what doesn't work works" against certain players, that kind of "output" is not that beneficial, since it reinforces my playing bad moves.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
So today is Friday. Expect tomorrow a summary review of all of the games that I played this week. I'll try to do from the opponent's perspective, too. Though, it is time consuming.
At some point, I should really start practicing go problems again. But somehow I've fallen off of the horse, so to speak.
When I get a habit or rhythm, it's easy to continue, but when I break, it takes awhile to get my engine running again. It's like with exercise. If I run every day, it's no problem to do it continually given the same routine. But if I go out for a movie or use the internet or something during that time for a few days, my habit switches, and it's really hard to get back at it.
Still need to get back into the go problem rhythm.
Maybe my desire to get stronger isn't strong enough, yet. I think that might be a big part of the problem (e.g. if I hit 2d on KGS instead of having 1d by my name... does it really matter?)
At some point, I should really start practicing go problems again. But somehow I've fallen off of the horse, so to speak.
When I get a habit or rhythm, it's easy to continue, but when I break, it takes awhile to get my engine running again. It's like with exercise. If I run every day, it's no problem to do it continually given the same routine. But if I go out for a movie or use the internet or something during that time for a few days, my habit switches, and it's really hard to get back at it.
Still need to get back into the go problem rhythm.
Maybe my desire to get stronger isn't strong enough, yet. I think that might be a big part of the problem (e.g. if I hit 2d on KGS instead of having 1d by my name... does it really matter?)
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thinking about this a little bit more, since my son is sleeping right now... Probably being 2d on KGS instead of 1d on KGS may have some good feeling, but intrinsically isn't that valuable. I remember the April Fools' Day joke where everyone on KGS was 9d. That felt kind of cool, but the novelty quickly wore off.Kirby wrote:Maybe my desire to get stronger isn't strong enough, yet. I think that might be a big part of the problem (e.g. if I hit 2d on KGS instead of having 1d by my name... does it really matter?)
I think the feeling of vanity comes from not doing my best to play precisely. If I'm not precise, and don't make much effort to find the optimal sequence, then there are two potential outcomes:
1. The sequence I selected happens to work to my benefit.
2. The sequence I selected doesn't work to my benefit.
In terms of planning, strategy, or pleasure gained from reading, the two outcomes are equivalent - I didn't do much planning, didn't have much strategy, and didn't try too hard to read. So in some ways, it's a bit random - like throwing the dice in the air.
Being good or bad at throwing dice in the air doesn't matter much.
So I would presume that the amount that I care about the game has a little bit to do with rank, but also has a bit to do with the extent to which I am exercising skills that make the game of go less random.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Though, on the other hand, there is some pleasure from seeing profit result from intuition - in areas where I wasn't precise. I get some emotion to play a given move, even though I haven't thought about it. When I play it and it works, then that's a nice feeling, I'd say...
So perhaps when I play based on emotion, my positive feeling is highly correlated with the result. But when I play based on logic, I can get some sort of pleasure from the effort I've taken to exercise my logic actively...
From this premise, I suppose that the only way I can guarantee that I have nice feeling is to put in effort to try to be precise - because I can't control the result of the game that well when I rely only on intuition.
I guess it'd be nice if all of the good moves just came to me from my intuition, and I didn't have to think at all. But then am I really even playing go?
So perhaps when I play based on emotion, my positive feeling is highly correlated with the result. But when I play based on logic, I can get some sort of pleasure from the effort I've taken to exercise my logic actively...
From this premise, I suppose that the only way I can guarantee that I have nice feeling is to put in effort to try to be precise - because I can't control the result of the game that well when I rely only on intuition.
I guess it'd be nice if all of the good moves just came to me from my intuition, and I didn't have to think at all. But then am I really even playing go?
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Shaddy
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
It appears to me that your instinctual response to things not going your way is to play a bunch of aji keshi. This is part of the reason that your opponents regularly end up very thick. After things go wrong, take a deep breath, and before you play a sente, think: "Do I *really* need to get this right now, or can I hold off? Is another move better?"
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I know I play aji keshi sometimes, but it wasn't clear to what extent.Shaddy wrote:It appears to me that your instinctual response to things not going your way is to play a bunch of aji keshi. This is part of the reason that your opponents regularly end up very thick. After things go wrong, take a deep breath, and before you play a sente, think: "Do I *really* need to get this right now, or can I hold off? Is another move better?"
You are a stronger player than me, so for the first round of today's reviews, I'll review only looking for these aji keshi moves that you say I'm making. I'll start out the reviews that way.
Stay tuned.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Per Shaddy's comment, I went through each of the 5 games, first looking just for aji keshi moves that I came up with.
Please feel free to chime in if you don't think the move is aji keshi, or if you think that there are moves that I missed in the game, which are aji keshi.
Game 1
Position 1 Almost missed this move since it's not really touching any of the opponent's stones, but maybe the exchange is aji keshi. Playing the 3-3 point is valuable for territory, and it also aims at the 'a' area. But of course, with black's response, the aji in the area is erased a bit... The best way to reduce this area is still not clear to me. But considering this local aji keshi exchange, maybe I can try to take advantage of the aji immediately.
For example, what about this?
After the aji keshi exchange in the game, such a move would be harder:
After the marked exchange, white can't easily connect to the white wall, so black can focus more directly on attacking.
Now, give me a bit more time to think about the subsequent play where I tried to live. It's complicated, and I don't know the best way to try to live (e.g. what's aji keshi, and what is not).
But if I don't try to find the optimal play during the review now when I have time, how can I expect to play well during the game???
(Game 1 to be continued...)
Please feel free to chime in if you don't think the move is aji keshi, or if you think that there are moves that I missed in the game, which are aji keshi.
Game 1
Position 1 Almost missed this move since it's not really touching any of the opponent's stones, but maybe the exchange is aji keshi. Playing the 3-3 point is valuable for territory, and it also aims at the 'a' area. But of course, with black's response, the aji in the area is erased a bit... The best way to reduce this area is still not clear to me. But considering this local aji keshi exchange, maybe I can try to take advantage of the aji immediately.
For example, what about this?
After the aji keshi exchange in the game, such a move would be harder:
After the marked exchange, white can't easily connect to the white wall, so black can focus more directly on attacking.
Now, give me a bit more time to think about the subsequent play where I tried to live. It's complicated, and I don't know the best way to try to live (e.g. what's aji keshi, and what is not).
But if I don't try to find the optimal play during the review now when I have time, how can I expect to play well during the game???
(Game 1 to be continued...)
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yoyoma
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Hey Kirby, I'm at the congress. Noticed your name was listed as a translator. I knon you're having some hard times now, just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you now.
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Thank you, yoyoma. Your sentiments are well noted, and I really appreciate it. I certainly wish things played out a different way, and that I could make it. I'm still hoping that things work out. If you're curious about details, talk to Brady - he's a pretty social guy, so he knows a lot about everybodyyoyoma wrote:Hey Kirby, I'm at the congress. Noticed your name was listed as a translator. I knon you're having some hard times now, just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you now.
I'm also a little guilty that I didn't end up being the translator. I'm sorry to hear that I'm listed, because that probably means that they didn't find someone to replace me. Lee Dahye is pretty good at English, I think, though I'm not sure about On Sojin's ability. I hope that there are no difficulties due to my skipping out.
Maybe you can attend their lectures, and if there are any communication barriers, you can assist. I know that you're pretty good at Korean. Or maybe ask Tony Cha.
In any case, have fun! I'll be with you guys in spirit, keeping tabs on the live broadcasts when possible
Oh, and good luck tomorrow for Game 1 of the US Open!
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Game 1 (continued)
The next move that I think is aji keshi is this one: It's a cross attach, so it looks fancy. But after the subsequent sequence, aji on the bottom is erased:
The cross attach is now a single white stone. It's true that the marked black stones now have fewer liberties, so are a little bit weaker. But was it worth erasing what was on the bottom?
Locally, I'm thinking that it was better to start with this:
Aji for cross-attach, etc., is still there. Black will probably pincer to prevent white from making a base. A far pincer seems more severe: Nonetheless, the exchange isn't bad for white really, because there is still a lot of space to do something in black's sphere of influence, I think.
To be continued...
The next move that I think is aji keshi is this one: It's a cross attach, so it looks fancy. But after the subsequent sequence, aji on the bottom is erased:
The cross attach is now a single white stone. It's true that the marked black stones now have fewer liberties, so are a little bit weaker. But was it worth erasing what was on the bottom?
Locally, I'm thinking that it was better to start with this:
Aji for cross-attach, etc., is still there. Black will probably pincer to prevent white from making a base. A far pincer seems more severe: Nonetheless, the exchange isn't bad for white really, because there is still a lot of space to do something in black's sphere of influence, I think.
To be continued...
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Aji-keshi from Game 1 continued...
Next up is this move.
After black responds naturally, it hurts white's chances of doing something inside: While this is aji-keshi, I suppose there is a caveat. White would really like to respond to black's push, locally: So in this sense, it's almost "double-sente" locally to play this move. However, white doesn't have to answer black here, so I think white needs to make a plan first for how to continue, before deciding whether to push.
Currently, I am liking this move: It threatens both to connect with a move like 'a' and cut black off, and to make a pseudo-connection with a move like 'b' later. If black responds locally, white can reduce further: If black tries to grab territory and let white keep that stone, it might still be difficult: Things might not be so bad for white.
It's true that I don't know if this is optimal. But I like this way better than what I played in the game.
Following this is the sequence where I floundered to try to escape from black's area of influence. I think that as I start off with bad exchanges, the situation gets worse and worse, so maybe it's enough to remember these first aji-keshi exchanges, and move on from this.
So next up is to do a review of this game from black's perspective...
To be continued...
Next up is this move.
After black responds naturally, it hurts white's chances of doing something inside: While this is aji-keshi, I suppose there is a caveat. White would really like to respond to black's push, locally: So in this sense, it's almost "double-sente" locally to play this move. However, white doesn't have to answer black here, so I think white needs to make a plan first for how to continue, before deciding whether to push.
Currently, I am liking this move: It threatens both to connect with a move like 'a' and cut black off, and to make a pseudo-connection with a move like 'b' later. If black responds locally, white can reduce further: If black tries to grab territory and let white keep that stone, it might still be difficult: Things might not be so bad for white.
It's true that I don't know if this is optimal. But I like this way better than what I played in the game.
Following this is the sequence where I floundered to try to escape from black's area of influence. I think that as I start off with bad exchanges, the situation gets worse and worse, so maybe it's enough to remember these first aji-keshi exchanges, and move on from this.
So next up is to do a review of this game from black's perspective...
To be continued...
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