The mistakes I make

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:03 am

Hi mongus,

You're welcome.

At this stage of the game there are bound to be weaknesses all over the board?

No, not at all.

Hmm, I see...

I need to consider weak and strong groups a lot more.

It's not easy to evaluate these weaknesses; thus :b14:

, and the questions at :b14:

.

$$W
$$ . . . . . . |
$$ . . O O O . |
$$ . O X X X 2 |
$$ . O 3 4 5 1 |
$$ . . . . X . |
$$ ------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ . . . . . . | $$ . . O O O . | $$ . O X X X 2 | $$ . O 3 4 5 1 | $$ . . . . X . | $$ ------------+[/go]
I need to work on my life and death a lot harder.

Why

?

I tend strive for total annihilation as opposed to just winning the game.

Not necessarily a bad thing, to try to kill everything:
you can learn a lot from it.
For some students (who may be too "shy" with their slow, soft moves),
this could be a right prescription;
for others who are "too" aggressive, overplay too much, they would need another approach.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:19 am

EdLee wrote:Hi mongus,

You're welcome.
At this stage of the game there are bound to be weaknesses all over the board?
No, not at all.
I need to consider weak and strong groups a lot more.
It's not easy to evaluate the value of these weaknesses; thus , and the questions at .

It is very possible that I misunderstand strength and weakness in that case.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . $$ | . . 2 . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . $$ +--------------[/go]

After

the corner is not settled and thus easily invade-able, does this not make it weak?

How would it be less weak than Whites position here?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . Q . . Q . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------------[/go]

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:24 am

$$B
$$ +------------ |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ +------------ | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . 2 . . | $$ . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . |[/go]
After the corner is not settled and thus easily invade-able, does this not make it weak?

Good question: No, :b1:

is not weak. Otherwise no pros would open at 4-4.
Let's look at one joseki:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm5 $$ ------------------| $$ . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 4 2 . . . . | $$ . . 5 3 1 O O 8 . | $$ . . . . . X X 6 . | $$ . . . . . . . 7 . | $$ . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If W decides to play this joseki on an open 19x19 board,
starting at :w2:

and ending with :b13:

,
our current understanding is W jumping into 3-3 at :w2:

is too early,
and the result is good for Black.

Understanding of strength and weakness is highly non-trivial;
indeed, it's an endless growth curve.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:24 am

EdLee wrote:Why ?

Good point, not necessary.

EdLee wrote:
I tend strive for total annihilation as opposed to just winning the game.
Not necessarily a bad thing, to try to kill everything:
you can learn a lot from it.

I am learning that it is very hard to kill things and very easy to leave weaknesses behind!

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:49 am

The meaning of :b1:

is not to settle:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ------------- | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Even if W spends three moves here, B is still OK.
Example: B can still get out with :b7:

:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B , tenuki $$ ------------- | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . 2 . . 6 . . | $$ . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . 7 . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

Example: B can live in the corner ( left as an exercise for you

):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B , tenuki $$ ------------- | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . | $$ . 2 . . 7 . . | $$ . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . 6 . . . . | $$ . . . . 4 . . | $$ . . . . . . . |[/go]

If you can tenuki twice and still get an OK result locally, you're not weak.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 4:59 am

How would it be less weak than Whites position here?
$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . .
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------------[/go]

If W tenukis twice from this, W will suffer a big loss.
Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B , tenuki $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . . 1 . . 5 . . $$ | . . . . . O 3 . O . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------------[/go]

Example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B , tenuki $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . X . 3 . . . , . . $$ | . . . . 1 O 5 . O . X . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------------[/go]

( Likely there are even better local moves than these :b3:

's and

's. )

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 5:23 am

There was an 8d on KGS a few years back called takemeba who had an interesting style of play, a very flexible aji-ful centre style. One of his favourite openings was to say the 4-4 point was weak following a 3-3 invasion when he had the surrounding star points. The games might go something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 7 . . . . . 0 . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 8 . . . . . 2 . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . 6 . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe the hane at 15 is an overplay (just extend is safe but could be slack) and cut at 16 the punishment, or is 16 cut an overplay? Anyway black would sometimes die after this. It was fun to watch.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 2 7 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . 6 X 3 9 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . O . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Anyway, the point I am making is that 4-4 is not weak on its own, but with some support on the outside (and those hoshis of takemeba aren't that much support really) the 3-3 can indeed be an attacking invasion, taking the base in the corner. So when your opponent has both side extensions from your 4-4 it becomes sad (I won't say weak yet). So as a basic rule of thumb it's good to add a move to it if this happens.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:05 am

So, I see that there are two general approaches that one can consider.

1. Take territory then settle groups.
2. Settle groups then expand into territory.

Or, probably even better settle groups whilst taking territory by attacking your opponents groups. This is what I think a lot of experts try to convey. At my level of understanding it is really hard to know how best to do this.

One other question,

EdLee wrote: Floater. ( Doesn't really do anything. )

Often when I see my opponent is creating a fairly large moyo, I will just place a stone near the widest gap. I then have the choice of moving into the moyo to reduce it and moving out to connect to my groups. That is what I was attempting to do with this move. I then played M7 to move into the box and was later able to connect it again.

Had I not played this move Black would have been able to create a large solid territory through the centre of the board.

Was there a better move I could have made that would have achieved this?

This time I think it worked, but often it doesn't. It is a problem I often get into. I see a large territory forming and to stop it I place a "floater" to try to prevent it. A fight ensues which I am starting from a disadvantaged position. I often lose and my "floater" dies.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:42 am

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 29 to 29 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree with Ed that this is a "floater" and it does not do what you aim for, i.e.

"Often when I see my opponent is creating a fairly large moyo, I will just place a stone near the widest gap. I then have the choice of moving into the moyo to reduce it and moving out to connect to my groups."

First of all, Black's moyo isn't fairly large, it's fairly small.
Secondly, after your move, Black can perfectly close it and your move is floating:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Close $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . 2 . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

What you really want to do in this situation, is play "on the border of two moyos", i.e. enlarge your corner while reducing his relatively small potential area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W var 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . 2 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example, this way White gets a corner of 15 points plus an extension to the left, while Black's central territory is also about 15 points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W var 2 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . 4 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . 2 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or this way (assuming Black would be so docile) the combined expansion & reduction is even bigger.

In any case the border of these moyos is the key area, not the reduction from the top, which results in a floating stone, as Ed pointed out.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:58 am

Knotwilg wrote:What you really want to do in this situation, is play "on the border of two moyos", i.e. enlarge your corner while reducing his relatively small potential area.

$$W var 1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . 2 . O a . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W var 1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . 2 . O a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 5 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For example, this way White gets a corner of 15 points plus an extension to the left, while Black's central territory is also about 15 points.

Whilst I agree the corner is bigger, given the thinness of the 2-space jump I would rather just iron pillar than kick, to avoid the bad aji at a above. Also black might not play 4. Though is a still a tesuji later?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W solid $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . . . O a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Or attach and bulge:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . 2 1 . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But maybe black can wedge? If white ataris from the outside taking the corner in exchange for letting white into that centre area doesn't make me sad as black: it wasn't so big anyway. Corners then sides then centre and all that. White still has problems around a.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . 5 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . . 1 2 O 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 4 6 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But if white ataris from below and gives black a ponnuki for a big solid corner I actually feel sad as black, the outside is inefficent and the corner is big. But maybe black has a stronger resistance.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . . 8 4 7 . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . 6 1 2 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X 3 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So white would need to read and judge quite a few lines before playing this attach, whilst the simple iron pillar is clear and good.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:12 am

A good thing to think about when considering whether/when/where to reduce a moyo/area is to consider what happens if you don't and you let you opponent play there first (in fact this is a good thought process in many situations). If he has no good move to close the area and make you sad then you don't need to reduce it. Or if you play some big move, he closes it, and you play some other big move are you happy or sad? (tedomari is important here). In this game example there is no black move to close that area I worry about, so reducing it is not urgent. Was there some black move you were afraid of? As an example of a moyo which is urgent to reduce see below: if white plays on the left black 2 closes off a rather large area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , 2 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So reducing on the border line now is a good idea:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:20 am

mongus wrote:So, I see that there are two general approaches that one can consider.

1. Take territory then settle groups.
2. Settle groups then expand into territory.

Here is a better approach, courtesy of the great Takagawa:

1. Make territory by settling groups.
2. Settle groups by fighting.

What Takagawa actually said was more like this:

Go is a game of territory, but territory is very difficult to make. You settle territory through skirmishes.

mongus wrote:Or, probably even better settle groups whilst taking territory by attacking your opponents groups.

That's the spirit!

This is what I think a lot of experts try to convey. At my level of understanding it is really hard to know how best to do this.

When I was a rank beginner I started out trying to stake out secure territory, but I soon learned that that did not work. Just letting the territory take care of itself worked much better.

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:03 pm

What I would be worried about, if i just played along the bottom right of Blacks Moyo is that by pushing up from the bottom right it would just push Black up towards the centre. It would be helping my opponent to build a large wall facing the centre of the board :

Something like the following (slightly exaggerated) scenario could ensue :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . X O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black would have a very strong influence in taking the rest of the board.

At least by playing this floater I am in a sense pushing black down and suppressing his influence towards the centre.

I do note however that in the actual game, I did play the floater and Black still gained a solid gain over the centre - so it is likely that my thinking here is flawed. There must be a point where I would stop building up my bottom left and start focusing on the centre.

Any ideas at what point this would be? My guess would be as soon as I see Black extending out from his Moyo (the marked stone in the diagram). Would this be a good idea?

I have no idea, other than the floater move I played how to get some influence over the marked points in the centre. If I made a similar approach, but from the left Black would just build a similar wall.

Now I would also get a wall, but since Blacks Moyo here is right in the middle of the board he would get influence over a larger portion of the board than my wall would get.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:24 pm

mongus wrote:What I would be worried about, if i just played along the bottom right of Blacks Moyo is that by pushing up from the bottom right it would just push Black up towards the centre. It would be helping my opponent to build a large wall facing the centre of the board :

Something like the following (slightly exaggerated) scenario could ensue :

$$W
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . X O , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . O . . . . X X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X O . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , M . . X O , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . M M M . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . X Q . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O X . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . O X . . X O . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . O . X . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black would have a very strong influence in taking the rest of the board.

At least by playing this floater I am in a sense pushing black down and suppressing his influence towards the centre.

I do note however that in the actual game, I did play the floater and Black still gained a solid gain over the centre - so it is likely that my thinking here is flawed. There must be a point where I would stop building up my bottom left and start focusing on the centre.

Any ideas at what point this would be? My guess would be as soon as I see Black extending out from his Moyo (the marked stone in the diagram). Would this be a good idea?

I have no idea, other than the floater move I played how to get some influence over the marked points in the centre. If I made a similar approach, but from the left Black would just build a similar wall.

Now I would also get a wall, but since Blacks Moyo here is right in the middle of the board he would get influence over a larger portion of the board than my wall would get.

On one level, this diagram is a bit unrealistic, as one side or the other should start pushing out or tenuki. Despite that, however, are you sure white's position is bad? White can easily throw a stone in the area of the marked points and black's wall looks like it's hard to get points out of. White's other groups are fairly strong, and you could also consider a jump to F15 to build the top and remove invasion aji. Finally, white really has quite a lot of points on the right side and has sente.

The other thing to consider is that if you look at your bottom left group, it's fairly alive but not that big. Making it bigger isn't going to bring a lot more territory with it, so I'd leave it be. At most, a slide into the corner might be considered sente (D2).

mongus · Post by **mongus** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 3:01 pm

skydyr wrote:On one level, this diagram is a bit unrealistic...

True, it just represents my fears rather than reality.

skydyr wrote: White can easily throw a stone in the area of the marked points and black's wall looks like it's hard to get points out of.

Would this throw in not also be considered a floater? (I'm trying to understand what makes a floater a floater.)

Life In 19x19

The mistakes I make

Re:

Re:

Re: The mistakes I make

Re:

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: Re:

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make

Re: The mistakes I make