Perhaps this has some (significant?) therapeutic or cathartic effect.I should stop typing so much here,
Hmm... is this an unconscious, underlying theme of some journals and blogs...
Kirby's Study Journal
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EdLee
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I appreciate your introspective posts, Kirby. I also find that playing go can reveal broader patterns in my life.
I think you are describing an age old struggle that many (or most) of us have felt. Ideally, those things that bring us long term benefit would also be the things that bring us pleasure in the present. But often that is not the case. Our desires are disordered. We can be drawn to activities that are destructive, or drawn to overindulge in acts that are good in moderation.
I believe that how we deal with this observation about ourselves is one of the most important decisions we will face. I hope that go can serve as a training ground for us both, and I hope that you find deeper answers as well.
I think you are describing an age old struggle that many (or most) of us have felt. Ideally, those things that bring us long term benefit would also be the things that bring us pleasure in the present. But often that is not the case. Our desires are disordered. We can be drawn to activities that are destructive, or drawn to overindulge in acts that are good in moderation.
I believe that how we deal with this observation about ourselves is one of the most important decisions we will face. I hope that go can serve as a training ground for us both, and I hope that you find deeper answers as well.
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Knotwilg
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
What you describe is indeed an old tension of (wo)man: the inability to always spontaneously do what's good. When "good" means "good for society", this is actually the description of the "original sin". These days "good" has come to mean "good for ourselves" but the inability remains the same.
In my experience there are other activities than type 1 & type 2. It's not true that long term benefit always comes at the expense of short term pain or boredom and neither is it true long term damage is always caused by short term pleasure. The two other quandrants exist as well but we are not as aware of them because they don't create tension of any kind:
- we all drink water at least sometimes (and not always coffee or alcohol) and especially when thirsty this can be quite enjoyable
- we don't usually drink sulphuric acid, which would both damage us and isn't pleasurable at all
These are trivial examples but I think there are less trivial ones to be found in our daily lives. We have grown so accustomed to the idea of T1/T2 and being sinners, that we tend to feel guilty when doing pleasurable stuff and seek boring or painful activities which allegedly will bring long term benefit.
When I started realizing that there is no such strong correlation, I stopped doing certain things, started doing others and above all stopped feeling guilty about lots of things.
- I stopped urging myself to run. I love cycling so that's what I occasionally do instead. Besides, lots of injuries come from running. Is it really so beneficial? I play table tennis too: enjoyable and good for health;
- I stopped feeling guilty about not reading books as often as I should. Who has proven anyway that books are good? Is the Internet THAT much worse?
- But I did quit smoking recently. I realized I didn't actually enjoy it and well ...
- On the other hand I keep drinking a few good beers once a week, because I really like it.
etc etc
This relates to go as well. It was Bill who once said: "above all, study what you like". None of us is becoming the next Lee Sedol, so it doesn't really matter what and how we study. Better enjoy ourselves and not get too worked up about our rank fluctuation (but even that is human, so don't feel too guilty about that either).
In my experience there are other activities than type 1 & type 2. It's not true that long term benefit always comes at the expense of short term pain or boredom and neither is it true long term damage is always caused by short term pleasure. The two other quandrants exist as well but we are not as aware of them because they don't create tension of any kind:
- we all drink water at least sometimes (and not always coffee or alcohol) and especially when thirsty this can be quite enjoyable
- we don't usually drink sulphuric acid, which would both damage us and isn't pleasurable at all
These are trivial examples but I think there are less trivial ones to be found in our daily lives. We have grown so accustomed to the idea of T1/T2 and being sinners, that we tend to feel guilty when doing pleasurable stuff and seek boring or painful activities which allegedly will bring long term benefit.
When I started realizing that there is no such strong correlation, I stopped doing certain things, started doing others and above all stopped feeling guilty about lots of things.
- I stopped urging myself to run. I love cycling so that's what I occasionally do instead. Besides, lots of injuries come from running. Is it really so beneficial? I play table tennis too: enjoyable and good for health;
- I stopped feeling guilty about not reading books as often as I should. Who has proven anyway that books are good? Is the Internet THAT much worse?
- But I did quit smoking recently. I realized I didn't actually enjoy it and well ...
- On the other hand I keep drinking a few good beers once a week, because I really like it.
etc etc
This relates to go as well. It was Bill who once said: "above all, study what you like". None of us is becoming the next Lee Sedol, so it doesn't really matter what and how we study. Better enjoy ourselves and not get too worked up about our rank fluctuation (but even that is human, so don't feel too guilty about that either).
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Knotwilg,
Thank you for your insightful post. You bring up a very good point that there are other activities that are not strictly T1 or T2. As you accurately point out, some choices may be strictly better or worse than others - drinking sulphuric acid is neither pleasant nor beneficial.
Once again, I'm compelled to draw an analogy with go. At a workshop in Seattle last year, Kim Myungwan 9p explained a bit about the value of influence. Specifically, he pointed out that, as a rule, influence is more useful at the beginning of the game. Influence can lead to future points in a number of ways - for example, the opponent can be attacked if they are near the influence, thereby bringing points later in the game in a different part of the board.
In contrast, in the endgame, territory is king. You don't care about making a wall - you just want to maximize points as much as possible around the board. In the endgame, influence has less value.
Myungwan explained this by comparing influence to a university degree, and comparing territory to cash. If your objective in life is to gain money, it's often a good idea in a person's "fuseki" (i.e. when they are young) to get a college degree. The investment gives significant potential for making more money later in life. In contrast, by the time you are 70, while it might be entertaining, it's less likely to make financial sense to start on a college degree. At that point, if the goal is to make money, it'd be better just to have a lot of cash in your "endgame" and live life comfortably.
Let's move back to T1 and T2 activities. And let's add in two other quadrants, T3 and T4, defining them each as follows:
* T1: Enjoyable in the long-term; unpleasant right now.
* T2: Unpleasant in the long-term; enjoyable right now.
* T3: Enjoyable in the long-term; enjoyable right now.
* T4: Unpleasant in the long-term; unpleasant right now.
Of course, real activities don't have a binary enjoyable/unpleasant switch, but perhaps we can consider these categories as the extreme cases.
Now, since I enjoy comparing things to go, let's modify Myungwan's analogy, and equate "influence" to something that is positive for the long-term, and equate "territory" that is positive for the short-term immediate benefit.
Graphically, we can consider examples from black's perspective.
Example T1 Situation Above, black didn't get any immediate benefit. Black gave up points for white, so in the short term, black is suffering. But the investment will likely lead to future benefit, since black has significant influence on the outside.
Example T2 Situation Above, black got immediate profit. But there is little potential on the outside, so there will likely be less future benefit in this local area.
Example T3 Situation Let's say that black captured white. Black has both territory and influence. It's a win-win situation, which can be compared to something that's both enjoyable in the present and enjoyable in the future.
Example T4 Situation Finally, here, black was captured. Black has neither influence nor territory. This can be compared to something that's not enjoyable in the present, nor in the future. This is the "drinking sulphuric acid" result.
---
Ok, so we have some sort of vague analogy we can make. In go, you can have both influence and territory. Sometimes you make a tradeoff between the two. Sometimes you can get both. In life, there are activities that give immediate benefit. There are also activities that are not that fun, but which will give very significant future benefit.
In ideal situations, you can find ways to get both. Maybe you can capture a group and get both territory and influence. Great! In life, maybe you can find something that is enjoyable in the present, and also gives pleasure for the long term. Great!
But certainly, the T1 and T2 categories still exist, so at times, there is a conflict: Do I aim for immediate benefit, or delayed gratification? Do I aim for immediate profit and territory, or for investment in influence?
---
So maybe we can compare the decisions we make in life to playing a game of go. If possible, try to find multi-purpose moves - ones that give immediate and future benefit, for example. But sometimes, we must make decisions to sacrifice one area of life in exchange for benefit somewhere else.
Then what does it mean to make effective decisions in life or in go? It's somewhat obvious to say, but perhaps it means to make decisions that result in the best situation. In go, this means weighing potential options, and opting for the strategy that will give you the best result. In life, maybe it's not that different.
If you can find something that you enjoy doing in the short-term, which is also beneficial in the long-term - cycling, for example, maybe it is indeed a good choice. Maybe that move is purely better than a move that gives you both less territory and less influence.
But this points to something of key importance: the ability to evaluate a move's future and immediate benefit. To give an example, medicine has advanced over the years. Some types of cancer treatments may have had medicine ABC for treatment. After additional research and time, it was discovered that DEF was actually a universally better treatment. But before knowing about DEF, ABC was known to be the best choice.
Anyway, coming back to life and choosing what activities I should do, it might be difficult to accurately quantify whether a given action is X% T1 or Y% T2, or Z% T3, etc. But perhaps it's a best-effort type of thing.
As in go, I can:
I suppose that's the best I can do for now.
If decisions in life are really comparable to go, maybe someday AlphaGo can tell me how to better spend my time
Thank you for your insightful post. You bring up a very good point that there are other activities that are not strictly T1 or T2. As you accurately point out, some choices may be strictly better or worse than others - drinking sulphuric acid is neither pleasant nor beneficial.
Once again, I'm compelled to draw an analogy with go. At a workshop in Seattle last year, Kim Myungwan 9p explained a bit about the value of influence. Specifically, he pointed out that, as a rule, influence is more useful at the beginning of the game. Influence can lead to future points in a number of ways - for example, the opponent can be attacked if they are near the influence, thereby bringing points later in the game in a different part of the board.
In contrast, in the endgame, territory is king. You don't care about making a wall - you just want to maximize points as much as possible around the board. In the endgame, influence has less value.
Myungwan explained this by comparing influence to a university degree, and comparing territory to cash. If your objective in life is to gain money, it's often a good idea in a person's "fuseki" (i.e. when they are young) to get a college degree. The investment gives significant potential for making more money later in life. In contrast, by the time you are 70, while it might be entertaining, it's less likely to make financial sense to start on a college degree. At that point, if the goal is to make money, it'd be better just to have a lot of cash in your "endgame" and live life comfortably.
Let's move back to T1 and T2 activities. And let's add in two other quadrants, T3 and T4, defining them each as follows:
* T1: Enjoyable in the long-term; unpleasant right now.
* T2: Unpleasant in the long-term; enjoyable right now.
* T3: Enjoyable in the long-term; enjoyable right now.
* T4: Unpleasant in the long-term; unpleasant right now.
Of course, real activities don't have a binary enjoyable/unpleasant switch, but perhaps we can consider these categories as the extreme cases.
Now, since I enjoy comparing things to go, let's modify Myungwan's analogy, and equate "influence" to something that is positive for the long-term, and equate "territory" that is positive for the short-term immediate benefit.
Graphically, we can consider examples from black's perspective.
Example T1 Situation Above, black didn't get any immediate benefit. Black gave up points for white, so in the short term, black is suffering. But the investment will likely lead to future benefit, since black has significant influence on the outside.
Example T2 Situation Above, black got immediate profit. But there is little potential on the outside, so there will likely be less future benefit in this local area.
Example T3 Situation Let's say that black captured white. Black has both territory and influence. It's a win-win situation, which can be compared to something that's both enjoyable in the present and enjoyable in the future.
Example T4 Situation Finally, here, black was captured. Black has neither influence nor territory. This can be compared to something that's not enjoyable in the present, nor in the future. This is the "drinking sulphuric acid" result.
---
Ok, so we have some sort of vague analogy we can make. In go, you can have both influence and territory. Sometimes you make a tradeoff between the two. Sometimes you can get both. In life, there are activities that give immediate benefit. There are also activities that are not that fun, but which will give very significant future benefit.
In ideal situations, you can find ways to get both. Maybe you can capture a group and get both territory and influence. Great! In life, maybe you can find something that is enjoyable in the present, and also gives pleasure for the long term. Great!
But certainly, the T1 and T2 categories still exist, so at times, there is a conflict: Do I aim for immediate benefit, or delayed gratification? Do I aim for immediate profit and territory, or for investment in influence?
---
So maybe we can compare the decisions we make in life to playing a game of go. If possible, try to find multi-purpose moves - ones that give immediate and future benefit, for example. But sometimes, we must make decisions to sacrifice one area of life in exchange for benefit somewhere else.
Then what does it mean to make effective decisions in life or in go? It's somewhat obvious to say, but perhaps it means to make decisions that result in the best situation. In go, this means weighing potential options, and opting for the strategy that will give you the best result. In life, maybe it's not that different.
If you can find something that you enjoy doing in the short-term, which is also beneficial in the long-term - cycling, for example, maybe it is indeed a good choice. Maybe that move is purely better than a move that gives you both less territory and less influence.
But this points to something of key importance: the ability to evaluate a move's future and immediate benefit. To give an example, medicine has advanced over the years. Some types of cancer treatments may have had medicine ABC for treatment. After additional research and time, it was discovered that DEF was actually a universally better treatment. But before knowing about DEF, ABC was known to be the best choice.
Anyway, coming back to life and choosing what activities I should do, it might be difficult to accurately quantify whether a given action is X% T1 or Y% T2, or Z% T3, etc. But perhaps it's a best-effort type of thing.
As in go, I can:
- Read ahead about the likely outcomes.
- Make a best-effort evaluation of those outcomes.
- Act accordingly.
I suppose that's the best I can do for now.
If decisions in life are really comparable to go, maybe someday AlphaGo can tell me how to better spend my time
be immersed
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jeromie
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Perhaps, but I think this points to another confusion those of us with an intellectual bent sometimes make: Knowing what to do is not the same thing as doing it. It's an important first step, to be sure, and there are many moments where I have questions about the best way to spend my time. But there are other times when I know exactly what I should do to get the most benefit, but I make a different choice anyway. For example, I know that overeating at a good meal reduces the total amount of pleasure I get from the experience, but sometimes I do it anyway. Similarly, sometimes I "know" a move is right (for some value of knowing), but I don't play it for some reason.Kirby wrote: If decisions in life are really comparable to go, maybe someday AlphaGo can tell me how to better spend my time
I have hope that one day my mind and my will will act in perfect unity. But that day is still a long ways off.
I enjoy these types of posts. I wish we could sit over a board and play a game while discussing philosophy!
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I definitely hear you there! Knowing what you "should" do is a challenge in itself. Narrowing the gap between this knowledge and your actions is a whole other can of worms! I'd certainly be interested to hear your thoughts on that!jeromie wrote: Perhaps, but I think this points to another confusion those of us with an intellectual bent sometimes make: Knowing what to do is not the same thing as doing it. It's an important first step, to be sure, and there are many moments where I have questions about the best way to spend my time. But there are other times when I know exactly what I should do to get the most benefit, but I make a different choice anyway. For example, I know that overeating at a good meal reduces the total amount of pleasure I get from the experience, but sometimes I do it anyway. Similarly, sometimes I "know" a move is right (for some value of knowing), but I don't play it for some reason.
Well, if you're ever in Seattle (or if I'm ever wherever you live), I'd certainly be up for that!jeromie wrote:I enjoy these types of posts. I wish we could sit over a board and play a game while discussing philosophy!
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
I'll be honest. I'm angry. I simply cannot win against 2d. And this game proves it. Finally had the courage to play as 2d against another 2d, and I totally blew it. Twice.
I made a big shape on top, and felt good about the game. Then he captured a tail of my stones. Frustrated. After calming down, though, I counted. I was still winning. I couldn't believe it.
Proceeded to endgame. Still ahead. He threatens to cut off my group. I let him. That group died. Game over.
Here is the game:
Honestly, I'm too angry to review right now. I briefly played out the few remaining endgame points, and saw that had I simply answered his threat to disconnect my group, I would have won by 10 or 15 points, depending on the order.
Simply cannot believe this. There is a wall between me and 2d that I cannot overcome, even if I have more points on the board near the endgame
Back to 1d now.
I made a big shape on top, and felt good about the game. Then he captured a tail of my stones. Frustrated. After calming down, though, I counted. I was still winning. I couldn't believe it.
Proceeded to endgame. Still ahead. He threatens to cut off my group. I let him. That group died. Game over.
Here is the game:
Honestly, I'm too angry to review right now. I briefly played out the few remaining endgame points, and saw that had I simply answered his threat to disconnect my group, I would have won by 10 or 15 points, depending on the order.
Simply cannot believe this. There is a wall between me and 2d that I cannot overcome, even if I have more points on the board near the endgame
Back to 1d now.
be immersed
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
In his defense, he could play J6 instead of K6 and still kill me. But if I had any sort of sense of the group dying, I could have answered M5 differently.
Ug. So angry.
...
At least we have that study group now. I guess I'll read the intro chapters to Relentless to blow off some steam.
Ug. So angry.
...
At least we have that study group now. I guess I'll read the intro chapters to Relentless to blow off some steam.
be immersed
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sparky314
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Hi Kirby. Couple of questions:
Why the attachment? After the descent, black is cut off and forced to live small in the corner, and has allowed white to undercut black. Instead, later, black could connect underneath. Is this for the wall you later developed?
Why the peep in this direction? It seems to strengthen white, and doesn't give any profit. And the cut doesn't work. bN7, wO7, then P10 or Q12?
Why the attachment? After the descent, black is cut off and forced to live small in the corner, and has allowed white to undercut black. Instead, later, black could connect underneath. Is this for the wall you later developed? Why the peep in this direction? It seems to strengthen white, and doesn't give any profit. And the cut doesn't work. bN7, wO7, then P10 or Q12?-
Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Hi, sparky314.sparky314 wrote:Hi Kirby. Couple of questions:
For
, maybe I should give some context. I want to play this move:It strengthens the marked area, and if white moves upward, I get territory on the right. I don't have any real weak groups this way.
But I thought he might be able to treat his stones lightly and flexibly. So I wanted to make him heavy first. As you point out, this is at the cost of points, and I incur a local loss.
My imagined sequence was something like this: White's group seems kind of heavy to me, I live in the corner, I get profit on the right, and my group on the bottom was ok. I do incur local loss from that exchange at
, but it seemed like an OK deal to me. However, the bottom was open enough that he could somewhat settle his group, as he did in the game. So in the end, I would say that I payed the local cost of losing points for , and his group was not all that heavy.I don't feel terrible about it since my groups weren't that weak, but it wasn't ideal, probably.
Yeah, bad move, I think. I played
only because I thought it gave him good shape if he played there. But I didn't think much more outside of that.be immersed
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Shaddy
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
15 helps your opponent. 35 - characteristic greed. Your opponent should block on the 3rd line and your stones look thin.
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Jhyn
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
An interesting post. I have similar patterns in my life but I do not recognize the activity division you show here:
(I don't mean that I love doing all type I activities, though)
Mostly my problem is to get out of bed and find enough energy to put myself in the attitude of being completely into what I am doing; failing that, I fall into an unfocused, low-energy state where the hours pass by. Picture the difference between reading a book or opening pages at random. This is where I need a coach or an incentive of some kind, as I have a lot of trouble finding my own impulse. Sometimes I waste half a day and I suddenly get two great hours.
This is why I feel so good about tournament go but am always frustrated by Internet go (I never managed to find a way to focus with the Internet one click away).
My perspective. The greatest pleasures I have in my life come from what you call Type I activities. Studying, mathematics, reading, go/tsumego, any kind of activity in which I manage to focus completely on the task at hand, forget the world and immerge myself. I don't always manage to get into this state of flow - it requires energy and will - but I have zero doubts this is where I'm happy. This is hard, but precious. Spending my life doing Type II activities is my definition of Hell.Kirby wrote:In various areas of my life, there are many "Type 1" (T1) activities (making up this categorization on the fly) that are:In contrast, some "Type 2" (T2) activities that I am not proud of bring me:
- Unenjoyable in the moment that I am doing them; yet,
- Bring me satisfaction upon accomplishing them.
- Satisfaction in the moment that I am doing them; yet,
- Bring me disappointment or regret after I've done them.
(I don't mean that I love doing all type I activities, though)
Mostly my problem is to get out of bed and find enough energy to put myself in the attitude of being completely into what I am doing; failing that, I fall into an unfocused, low-energy state where the hours pass by. Picture the difference between reading a book or opening pages at random. This is where I need a coach or an incentive of some kind, as I have a lot of trouble finding my own impulse. Sometimes I waste half a day and I suddenly get two great hours.
This is why I feel so good about tournament go but am always frustrated by Internet go (I never managed to find a way to focus with the Internet one click away).
La victoire est un hasard, la défaite une nécessité.
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ez4u
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
If he had played 66 at K17, invading immediately, how would you have answered?
If he had played Q4 at some point, would you have ignored it? If you have to answer, White can answer 69 with M10 and just give up the four O8 stones if you push through. So it seems that the idea behind N8 and N9 is not correct.
If he had played Q4 at some point, would you have ignored it? If you have to answer, White can answer 69 with M10 and just give up the four O8 stones if you push through. So it seems that the idea behind N8 and N9 is not correct.
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21
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Kirby
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Re: Kirby's Study Journal
Yes, it is true that I feel some enjoyment when I am in a state of flow. This is good, because I can achieve both long term and short term enjoyment for such activities.Jhyn wrote:An interesting post. I have similar patterns in my life but I do not recognize the activity division you show here:
My perspective. The greatest pleasures I have in my life come from what you call Type I activities. Studying, mathematics, reading, go/tsumego, any kind of activity in which I manage to focus completely on the task at hand, forget the world and immerge myself. I don't always manage to get into this state of flow - it requires energy and will - but I have zero doubts this is where I'm happy. This is hard, but precious. Spending my life doing Type II activities is my definition of Hell.Kirby wrote:In various areas of my life, there are many "Type 1" (T1) activities (making up this categorization on the fly) that are:In contrast, some "Type 2" (T2) activities that I am not proud of bring me:
- Unenjoyable in the moment that I am doing them; yet,
- Bring me satisfaction upon accomplishing them.
- Satisfaction in the moment that I am doing them; yet,
- Bring me disappointment or regret after I've done them.
(I don't mean that I love doing all type I activities, though)
Mostly my problem is to get out of bed and find enough energy to put myself in the attitude of being completely into what I am doing; failing that, I fall into an unfocused, low-energy state where the hours pass by. Picture the difference between reading a book or opening pages at random. This is where I need a coach or an incentive of some kind, as I have a lot of trouble finding my own impulse. Sometimes I waste half a day and I suddenly get two great hours.
This is why I feel so good about tournament go but am always frustrated by Internet go (I never managed to find a way to focus with the Internet one click away).
On the other hand, I don't find T2 activities to be hell, at least in the moment I am doing them. Even if I may regret eating a cookie later, it is not hell while I am eating it; I rather enjoy it.
Even if we disagree on this point, one of the biggest questions seems to be how to attain this state of "flow" for T1 activities. It seems to be a way to enhance these activities to be interesting while I am doing them.
be immersed
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EdLee
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