Kirby's Study Journal

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:13 pm

ez4u wrote:If he had played 66 at K17, invading immediately, how would you have answered?

If he had played Q4 at some point, would you have ignored it? If you have to answer, White can answer 69 with M10 and just give up the four O8 stones if you push through. So it seems that the idea behind N8 and N9 is not correct.

I'd answer k17 with j17 kick.

Your point about n8 and n9 is probably correct.

During the game, and even right now, I must admit that I play based on feeling over accuracy at times, being too lazy to be precise... Maybe that's why I can't beat 2d :blackeye:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:17 pm

Continuing the path to KGS 1k :-)

Jhyn · Post by **Jhyn** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 2:48 pm

Kirby wrote:Yes, it is true that I feel some enjoyment when I am in a state of flow. This is good, because I can achieve both long term and short term enjoyment for such activities.

On the other hand, I don't find T2 activities to be hell, at least in the moment I am doing them. Even if I may regret eating a cookie later, it is not hell while I am eating it; I rather enjoy it.

Here I lack finesse in English to express my feelings. I believe these enjoyments are of different natures, and the type-I is more long-lived. Type-II would be akin to a sugary drink, where the enjoyment is strong at first and doesn't require an initial effort, but pretty fast the enjoyment stops and only the inertia remains (and it takes some energy to "snap out" of the activity). I am not talking about regret here, rather the "overfed" feeling where you've been watching TV for too long, don't enjoy it anymore but don't find the energy to do something else. Even with some variety I can feel this after spending a whole day on this type of activity.

Kirby wrote:Even if we disagree on this point, one of the biggest questions seems to be how to attain this state of "flow" for T1 activities. It seems to be a way to enhance these activities to be interesting while I am doing them.

I'll give you a few thousand dollars for an answer that works for me.

EdLee wrote:
T1 Unenjoyable in the moment
The greatest pleasures I have in my life come from what you call Type I activities.
Misread ? ( Or: pain = joy ? )

I know you're a bit tongue-in-cheek here, but I think it's good to not get caught up in definitions as long as we're not trying to be right or wrong, but rather to convey our ideas in a faithful manner. Kirby was describing some structures in his life and behaviour and I believe I recognised similar structures in my life, even though I didn't agree exactly with his description. More particularly here, there might be some subtelty about the way I translate the word "enjoyment" that I have trouble conveying - say "having fun" vs. 'having pleasure".

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:09 am

Jhyn wrote:Here I lack finesse in English to express my feelings. I believe these enjoyments are of different natures, and the type-I is more long-lived. Type-II would be akin to a sugary drink, where the enjoyment is strong at first and doesn't require an initial effort, but pretty fast the enjoyment stops and only the inertia remains (and it takes some energy to "snap out" of the activity). I am not talking about regret here, rather the "overfed" feeling where you've been watching TV for too long, don't enjoy it anymore but don't find the energy to do something else. Even with some variety I can feel this after spending a whole day on this type of activity.

Perhaps you are referring to a feeling of "shallow enjoyment"? I also lack finesse in English to explain what I mean :-)

, but a similar feeling comes to mind when I think of pain killers as a way to alleviate pain - they bring some feeling of temporary relief, which is "fake" in some ways. Or maybe you're referring to something different. I'm not quite sure, myself.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:05 am

There's a title of a modern book on parenting that always comes to mind in these conversations: All Joy and No Fun: The Paradox of Modern Parenthood. I haven't read the book, but the basic premise is that we sacrifice a lot of immediate pleasure ("fun") when we choose to raise kids, but the process is also deeply fulfilling. I think our modern society has focused so much on pleasure as an equivalent for happiness that we find it difficult to talk about joy as a real, distinct phenomenon. Even when we use the word, it is often reduced to a synonym for happiness rather than a deeper, enduring emotion.

My own understanding of joy is rooted in Christian theology, where joy is often talked about as a sense of contentment and hope that can be experienced in the midst of suffering. But even if we don't turn to theological definitions, I think this thread is touching on some of the same distinctions in our experience of modern life (and even in our go!).

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:12 am

Kirby wrote:I'll be honest. I'm angry. I simply cannot win against 2d. And this game proves it. Finally had the courage to play as 2d against another 2d, and I totally blew it. Twice.

Kirby wrote:Continuing the path to KGS 1k

It's a new week, and reflecting, I think that my attitude is too negative. I talk about how it's impossible for me to beat KGS 2d, and then later write a hasty comment about continuing on the path to KGS 1k, after losing a game that I didn't put enough thought into.

A reasonable question to ask, then, is: Why am I being negative?

A couple of items come to mind:

Somehow, there's the feeling that if I am dissatisfied, it will lead to a change and then lead to improvement.
There's some comfort in trying to get emphathy from others. If I exhibit some sort of persona that I "should" be winning, but due to hard circumstances, I am not... it gives me some sort of comfort in the thought that "at least other people know why I'm not strong".
I'm simply frustrated.

These reasons are not really logical. I can come up with better ideas for each so-called reason.

(a) "Somehow, there's the feeling that if I am dissatisfied, it will lead to a change and then lead to improvement."
> Change is necessary for improvement. I believe that. But has my expression of dissatisfaction lead to change? I don't think it's been a primary driving force. So what's important here is a change in routine that leads to a change to better moves.

(b) "There's some comfort in trying to get emphathy from others."
> This doesn't really make any sense. First, I cannot control whether I receive empathy from others. Second, let's assume that I receive empathy. Then what do I get? I'm a weak go player that people feel sorry for. I don't think this is a worthy goal to strive for.

(c) "I'm simply frustrated."
> Okay, sure. People get frustrated sometimes. But you have to get back up to get stronger.

---

So comprehensively, what can I learn from this?

Getting empathy or being dissatisfied will not lead to improvement.
Change in my current behavior, study routine, and moves will lead to improvement.

I think that's enough to focus on for now. I'll make an effort to be more positive... or at least to stop being as negative. This is not productive.

Real study - more than what I've been doing, and playing games more seriously, will lead to a good result. I will simply believe that. For example, if I had really studied and really played seriously, two games ago, I wouldn't have casually let my group be disconnected and killed. It's as simple as that. I was too casual and not serious enough about actually playing go.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:02 pm

For what it's worth, I can't beat 2-dans either. :mad:

Jhyn · Post by **Jhyn** » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:57 am

Perhaps you are referring to a feeling of "shallow enjoyment"? I also lack finesse in English to explain what I mean , but a similar feeling comes to mind when I think of pain killers as a way to alleviate pain - they bring some feeling of temporary relief, which is "fake" in some ways.

I think it's important not to be too harsh against what I see is a necessity of life - you need some sugar to keep running, but these are two different things. In the end the balance is to be found by one's trial and error and not by abstract thought - my opinion.

(a) "Somehow, there's the feeling that if I am dissatisfied, it will lead to a change and then lead to improvement."
> Change is necessary for improvement. I believe that. But has my expression of dissatisfaction lead to change? I don't think it's been a primary driving force. So what's important here is a change in routine that leads to a change to better moves.

(c) "I'm simply frustrated."
> Okay, sure. People get frustrated sometimes. But you have to get back up to get stronger.

If you swing and you miss, you hurt yourself proportionally to the energy you put in the move. I think the same is true for go. I also think it is important to handle your frustration after the fact, but I don't blame the frustration itself, as refusing frustration is refusing emotional involvement in the game.

The worst kind of frustration is when you have been unfocused (uninvolved) on your game, blundered, and feel frustrated regardless. Then this is just being a sour loser. Give me a few more years and I'll tell you how to handle it.

(b) "There's some comfort in trying to get emphathy from others."
> This doesn't really make any sense. First, I cannot control whether I receive empathy from others. Second, let's assume that I receive empathy. Then what do I get? I'm a weak go player that people feel sorry for. I don't think this is a worthy goal to strive for.

This makes a lot of sense, just not for improvement. I go to a go club because I want to meet people with whom I can talk, share my feelings, give me motivation ; improvement is just a part. If all that you do is aimed solely at improvement, I hope you have some other aspects of your life to provide for your social/emotional needs and that your job is not too stressful, because this would be your second job - or your first. For me, I would have given up go long ago without these things you consider useless.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:18 pm

I came up with an idea to address this "T1 vs. T2" happiness conflict. I read a blog online, and the author stated the obvious: T2 type activities are a good thing to do - in moderation. He also noted that acquiring the skill to do this could be thought of as a T1 type of happiness.

I have a hunch that I am not good at moderation. :-)

But what is "moderation"? Well, the sarcastic answer would be "moderation is to moderate". So if T2 type activities are good in moderation, it means that T2 activities are good if moderated. So... Why not moderate T2 activities in a more organized way?

The basic idea I'm considering is this:

Make the T2 activities in my life a limited resource. I will do this by assigning a numeric cost to T2 activities, based on the expected loss of happiness and/or consequence of not doing a T1 activity instead (e.g. while I'm "in the zone").
I will give myself a finite weekly allotment of "T2 happy cash", a currency that I can use to buy T2 activities.
"Purchase" T2 activities when desired throughout the week. If I run out of happy cash, I'm done for the week.
Next week, review the expenditure and assess whether the costs were correct and whether or not I need a different base allotment of "cash" at the start of the week.

This probably sounds rather silly, but I'm thinking of trying it out, since I seem to lack the self-discipline to exercise moderation at times. If I have a concrete, pre-determined amount of T2 happiness that I have already thought about at the start of the week, my hope is that I will be more likely to exercise moderation - through this "forced moderation" of T2 activities.

The tricky part will be determining how much each T2 activity is actually worth. But perhaps I can be more objective about this if I have thought about it in advance, rather than in the moment that the opportunity to exercise the activity is presented to me...(?)

Just an idea. I'll see how it goes.

daal · Post by **daal** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:04 am

Kirby wrote:I came up with an idea to address this "T1 vs. T2" happiness conflict. I read a blog online, and the author stated the obvious: T2 type activities are a good thing to do - in moderation. He also noted that acquiring the skill to do this could be thought of as a T1 type of happiness.

I have a hunch that I am not good at moderation.

But what is "moderation"? Well, the sarcastic answer would be "moderation is to moderate". So if T2 type activities are good in moderation, it means that T2 activities are good if moderated. So... Why not moderate T2 activities in a more organized way?

The basic idea I'm considering is this:
Make the T2 activities in my life a limited resource. I will do this by assigning a numeric cost to T2 activities, based on the expected loss of happiness and/or consequence of not doing a T1 activity instead (e.g. while I'm "in the zone").
I will give myself a finite weekly allotment of "T2 happy cash", a currency that I can use to buy T2 activities.
"Purchase" T2 activities when desired throughout the week. If I run out of happy cash, I'm done for the week.
Next week, review the expenditure and assess whether the costs were correct and whether or not I need a different base allotment of "cash" at the start of the week.

This probably sounds rather silly, but I'm thinking of trying it out, since I seem to lack the self-discipline to exercise moderation at times. If I have a concrete, pre-determined amount of T2 happiness that I have already thought about at the start of the week, my hope is that I will be more likely to exercise moderation - through this "forced moderation" of T2 activities.

The tricky part will be determining how much each T2 activity is actually worth. But perhaps I can be more objective about this if I have thought about it in advance, rather than in the moment that the opportunity to exercise the activity is presented to me...(?)

Just an idea. I'll see how it goes.

The idea sounds interesting, but also a bit doomed. :lol:

Once you run out of cash, you will probably start stealing. If you prove me wrong, wonderful. If not, I have another suggestion for you.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 16, 2016 8:31 am

I don't think it's a doomed idea - more likely to work than an arbitrary decision in the moment. Anyway, if it doesn't work, maybe I'll consider something simpler like your proposal.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:48 pm

Still in the hospital today, so I was reflecting more about life.

Specifically, I wrote down a few of my thoughts about the conflict I have between go and work. I'm a programmer by occupation, and programming is something I learned and enjoyed starting from around when I was in 10th grade.

These days, I don't get much joy from programming. I've thought of it as a means to get money for my family. I define my personal identity as a go player, having invested so much time into the game, these forums, on and off study, tournaments, and the like. My identity is a go player, but an average amateur player. So it's not feasible to make money from these activities. They are solely for my own intellectual pursuit and enjoyment.

Perhaps from this mindset stems the conflict that I have with my job. In fact, I somewhat enjoy my job. There are many intellectual challenges and opportunities. There's an endless amount that I can learn. Furthermore, it's much easier to make money and provide support for my family through programming. But alas, I haven't seen myself as a "programmer". I've seen myself as a "go player that programs to support his family".

For awhile, I've been okay with this. But I started to wonder, why do I accept this conflict in my life? It's many a go player's dream to someday become a professional player and make a living off of the thing that they love. But what if this love were, in fact, aligned with the profession that I already have?

In other words, wouldn't things be much easier if I had the same level of enjoyment and passion for programming as I do for go? If that were the case, then I would, practically speaking, be as well off as a professional go player. I'd be doing what I love and enjoy, and I'd be making money off of it. I'd probably get promoted faster if my passion translated into better results - which seems somewhat likely.

So I drew up a couple of lists to organize my thoughts. I wrote down the pros and cons of pursuing go as a passion. I also listed the pros and cons of pursuing programming as a passion. I won't list them here (some are personal), but sure enough, there are many pros for pursuing programming - and very few cons. In contrast, there are fewer pros for pursuing go, and more cons (e.g. I feel guilty about lacking the same level of enthusiasm at work, I'm potentially not providing for my family as well as I could if I were promoted more often, etc.).

There are only two cons that seem worth noting to pursuing programming as a passion: (1) I don't enjoy programming as much as I enjoy go; (2) I've invested much more into go up until now than programming in my spare time.

But then a thought came to me: Why don't I change these "cons" into "pros"? That is, if the reason I don't pursue programming as a passion compared to go is because I don't enjoy programming as much, then why not make a more conscious effort to enjoy it? And if I haven't invested as much time into programming compared to go, why not invest more time into it? If I were to do these two things, it would seem clearly the case that pursuing a passion in programming is a better use of my time. Furthermore, I would not be conflicted: spending time pursuing my career in programming would be a superior use of my time.

That's the conclusion I came to last night. That seems to be the logical conclusion.

---

But tonight, I'm finding that it's not an emotional conclusion I've reached. It seems logical to pursue programming as a passion. But emotionally, I don't want to. When I think of reducing my investment in go to pursue my career... it doesn't seem all that fun. It doesn't feel like something I want to do.

Perhaps, though, this is a byproduct of the fact that I simply like go more than programming right now. Maybe if I invest time into pursuing programming as a passion, maybe my enjoyment will follow. Maybe things will fall into place. In other words, maybe if I spend time trying to enjoy the thing that I don't enjoy, but *want* to enjoy... maybe I'll start to enjoy it. Forced love, perhaps?

Nonetheless, the more I thought along this line, the more I wanted to play a game of go. Maybe go was calling me. So I played a couple of games on KGS. They are listed here:

For once, I wasn't really focused on winning the game. I just played these games without much stress, because I simply wanted to play the games. I didn't feel a lot of pressure about losing, and I didn't think a lot about playing optimally. I wasn't interested in review, and I wasn't interested in finding a better move than what I'd played.

It was fun.

But is it enough to affect my conclusion? I'm not sure. Again, emotionally, programming should remain boxed into my career as a convenient means to make money. And go should remain my passion. Logically, it makes more sense to fire up my passion for programming.

I'm very conflicted.

I'm reminded of a Cho Chikun 9d quote that I first heard from Misaeng, a Korean drama with a lot of references to go.

Go legend Cho Chikun is asked why he plays go when there are other, more important things to pursue in this life. The quote from the drama goes something like this:

“그래봤자 바둑…
그래도 바둑…”

조치훈 9단이 하신 말씀이에요.
바둑 한 판 이기고 지는거…
그래봤자 세상에 아무 영향없는 바둑.

그래도 바둑.
세상과 상관없이
그래도 나에겐 전부인 바둑.

"It's just go...
Even so it's go"

It's what Cho Chikun 9d said.
Winning a game of go, losing a game of go...
Go - a game that has no real influence on this world.

Even so, it's go.
Go, having no relation with this world...
even so, it's my everything.

Do I feel the same way? It's somewhat illogical. Go, a game that has no influence on this world. In some ways, the game influences Cho Chikun in more real ways than it does for me. For one, Cho Chikun 9d can make a living off of it. While it's just a game, he can have real world benefit - maybe not compared to other pursuits, but more real world benefit than I'll ever have to say the least.

So perhaps it's even more the case for me. Why do I pursue a game that truly has no influence on my world? It's just go... Even so, it's go...

So illogical. But it makes sense at the same time :-)

globulon · Post by **globulon** » Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:15 pm

I have been enjoying reading your more personal reflections on the game and its place in your life.

It's interesting to me that any time I see something like this post of yours, my immediate and strong reaction is, "just pursue go" (I don't mean quit your job, just keep go as your passion.) However, I have exactly the same kind of conflict in my life. I love games, particularly go and chess. I'm no where near strong enough to make a living at them. I also worry a good bit if the time I spend on these things is a waste. For me I often think that if I were to pursue writing I would be more likely to make some kind of positive impact in a meaningful way on the world. I have a nagging suspicion that writing is a more valuable usage of my time. (Not that it's likely to lead to making much money either). Still, I can't get away from the fact that when I have free time, the most common thing for me to do is to study go (or chess), doing lots of problems and replaying pro games. I just like doing these things.

Maybe I just don't want others to pursue more "serious" pursuits because then I will be forced to examine more closely if I really believe these things to be worthy of the time I spend on them.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:01 pm

I think go does provide at least two tangible benefits: rest and community.

If you worked in a job that involved heavy manual labor, would you expect to go home and do more work on the weekend? Probably not. Your mind needs rest just as much as your body, and while go is mentally taxing it works your brain in a (slightly, but significantly) different way than programming. We are not machines, and we need rest as a regular rhythm in our lives.

You've also been very active on this forum over the years, so it seems that interacting with other go players is important to you. Though I don't know you personally, I'd certainly miss your presence if you were suddenly absent from the boards.

Is go the best way to get these benefits? I don't know. I too struggle with the place go has in my own life. While it is a good way for me to relax (and the hobby I've been most consistently able to engage over the last few years), I sometimes value it less than playing an instrument, running, reading quality literature, writing, studying theology, or even playing board games with friends. And while go is generally a positive element in my life, I can use it in poor ways: it can become a way to avoid what I am feeling, and I can allow my self worth to get wrapped up in my progress in the game. (Ironically, when that happens I tend to play much worse.) For me, though, the fact that I have been able to stick with go is itself significant. Diligence doesn't always come easy to me, and I am thankful to have one area of my life that I'm not always struggling to be consistent. I think that as long as I allow go to have the proper place in my life, it is a net benefit.

You'll have to decide for yourself whether go is good for you and your family. But whatever you do, make sure that you carve out time for rest and community. I think you'll find that the quality of your work and family life will decline without them.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:25 am

Hi Kirby

I'm sure many of us have gone through similar musings. It all becomes rather existential soon. For some people, making a living out of their passion seems to just happen, for others it remains a struggle or a frustration.

What helped me in developing more "passion" for my actual job is to realize how good I am at it and how special my seemingly trivial gifts apparently are. I used to think in a diminutive way about my skills. I was just "bringing people together" and "write down what they say". I didn't really perform any intellectual activity (which is why was seeking compensation in Go). At some point I started thinking more positively about it: other people either didn't realize how important it was to get together and think. Or they didn't know how to make these meetings useful. Or they didn't know how to collect the results for posterior work.

Becoming more positive about what I was already doing had a positive effect on my passion for my work. I started to do things even better and more of it.

I think if you think more highly of yourself as a programmer already, you may likewise feel more urge to program and become better at it.

Life In 19x19

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