Relentless: Study Group Thread (Intro + January Chapters)

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:50 pm

Thanks to everyone who expressed interest in participating in this study group! This thread is to keep track of our progress throughout the book. Diagrams that you find interesting, questions that you have, or any other comments or thoughts you come across when reading the book should be posted here, and we can discuss them!

Let's aim to be in sync in 1-week increments. In other words, we can have a reading goal for the week, and you can study at your own pace throughout the week to meet that goal, depending on the times of the week that work best for you. I initially intended to post a full reading schedule, but since it's the first week, let's start out with plans for the immediate future. Then, based on whether it's too much or too little, we can adjust for subsequent weeks.

So without further ado, let's aim for the following milestones:

September 12 (this coming Monday)

Forward
Preface
How to Use This Bookk
Introduction

September 19 (the following Monday)

January: Beijing
The Star Point
The 3-4 Point and the Direction of Play
Modern Go is Wide
The High Enclosure Emphasizes Thickness
The Micro-Chinese Opening
Remember to Close the Door
Get to the key Points Quickly
Size Matters in Go
Speech Is Silver and Silence is Golden
Maintain the Pressure
Know When to Hold 'Em...
Tread Lightly

The reading scheduled for the coming Monday is pretty light - some of you may be busy this weekend, so it's just the introductory parts of the book. You might notice that the schedule for the following week is much heavier. There are 13 sections, but each section is only a couple of pages. In total, it's only about 22 pages for the week.

Since it's the first session, it's a bit difficult to gauge the pace. So let's try this initial schedule for now, and then based on how easy or difficult it is, we can increase or decrease the load for subsequent weeks.

Happy reading! :tmbup:

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:48 pm

I notice from the Forward section that Lee Changho's advice to readers is to first play through the games by yourself, prior to reading the commentary. You can get a feel for your own thoughts on the game. Then you can read the commentary and see how it compares.

With that in mind, please feel free to optionally go through the game on your own per this advice, prior to starting "January: Beijing". Here is the SGF file of the first game, courtesy of gogameguru:

I obtained this SGF file from GoGameGuru's site:
https://gogameguru.com/lee-sedol-gets-f ... l-jubango/

studying · Post by **studying** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:45 am

My copy is still in the mail, so I don't know if this is covered in the Introduction, but one thing I've been thinking about is how the players might have gone about preparing for these matches, and whether there's anything I should adopt/change about my own pre-tournament preparations.

Research: The obvious starting point for a jubango (or any major title match) would be to replay your opponent's games and try to identify weaknesses. I'm sure both players knew each other's style and games well already. For local tournaments, I also know the styles of many of the players from casual games, but I'm not sure if there is more I could/should be doing here.

Fuseki plan: I would bet that Lee planned long ago to play the micro-Chinese if given the chance. Over time, I have also tried more to go into tournaments with a fuseki plan for black, and I should probably try a bit more planning as white. The more you can study in advance, the more time you can save for the hard middle-game problems.

Health/Wellness: The more tournaments I play in, the more I appreciate the importance of managing hunger and energy during an intense day of competition. I now always carry snacks and water. I find this makes the biggest difference in late afternoon play, but again, I'd be curious if others have other suggestions.

I apologize if this is off-topic or not the right idea of comments for the study group. Please ignore this if so.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:24 am

studying wrote:
I apologize if this is off-topic or not the right idea of comments for the study group. Please ignore this if so.

Not at all! Great points :tmbup:

I can particularly relate to your idea on health. I don't play many serious tournaments in a given year, but I particularly feel fatigued after the US Open. And that is only 1.5 hours per player, compared to the 3 hours 55 minutes each player had in the jubango!

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:27 pm

Takeaways from the first part of the book:

1. Dan players, play slow games.
2. Focus on your strengths first.
3. Do life & death problems.
4. Learn to love fighting.
5. Study pro games. (ok then ...)

Edit:

- So for this week, I'll play 1 more slow game. I did and won. Tygem 3d is however not a challenge.
- What is my strength in Go? Actually I don't know. I think I'm fairly well rooted in the fundamentals. I hope. I also think I can review well. The game involved some fighting.
- I'll continue the Hitachi go problems. They're easy but they're fun and they're fundamental. I did up until 216
- I think I love fighting already. I don't scuff fights.
- And pro games ... Besides relentless, which I've studied already, I'll have another look at those Otake games.

I replayed a game by Otake 3 times. I'll post the analysis in my own study journal. It's a bit unclear to what extend we will use this thread to cover our own progress based on the reading of relentless.

cornucopia · Post by **cornucopia** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:57 am

After reading the first set of pages, I feel that for me (a go player at the SDK level):

1. Analysis of your weaknesses and bad habits seems very important, so I plan to review my games more often with stronger players. Playing with stronger players would be even better.
2.Perhaps at our level focussing on ones weaknesses is more important then focussing on strenghts in order to become a more "balanced" go player?
3. A tsumego diet remains very important to develop reading skills and subsequent confidence during (middle game) fights!
4. Stop fooling around, study go theory more often and play more serious games, implementing these concepts.

studying · Post by **studying** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:22 am

Knotwilg wrote:2. Focus on your strengths first.

cornucopia wrote:2.Perhaps at our level focussing on ones weaknesses is more important then focussing on strenghts in order to become a more "balanced" go player?

I think that there's some truth in both ideas, if they're unpacked a bit.

On the one hand, I felt I benefited from identifying the areas of my game (endgame, reading) that were particularly weak and focusing on them for a bit to bring them closer to average. In project management this would usually be referred to as the "low hanging fruit" approach.

On the other hand, I've been trying recently to stop fighting against my preferred style of play (very territorial). I think a lot of my struggles have been when trying to play a more balanced style of play or with strongly moyo-based fuseki.

In other words, I think there's two different meaning of "focus" - focus for studying and focus for game development. When studying, I'd be inclined to focus on weak areas, but when playing, we should recognize our strengths and try to guide the game in a direction that will allow us to use that strength to its fullest.

Still waiting on my copy of the book, so there may be some context I'm missing, but that's my two cents.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:51 am

studying wrote:
Still waiting on my copy of the book, so there may be some context I'm missing, but that's my two cents.

I'm waiting for my copy, too, but the front matter is all available in the sample on the GoGameGuru web site: https://gogameguru.com/i/go-books/samples/relentless-sample.pdf

cornucopia · Post by **cornucopia** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:05 pm

studying wrote: When studying, I'd be inclined to focus on weak areas, but when playing, we should recognize our strengths and try to guide the game in a direction that will allow us to use that strength to its fullest.

I like your view on this.

sparky314 · Post by **sparky314** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:27 pm

Life and Death
They seem to focus strictly on life and death, but perhaps their intent is go problems in general? I think tesuji problems are particularly important to SDK players, and they help with life and death. Tesuji is particularly important in fighting, and relates well to learning to love the fight. I don't think either life and death or tesuji should be neglected, both are critical to increasing reading strength, which is a defining characteristic of stronger players.

I enjoy tsumego/tesuji problems, and try to spend a little time each day. It's part of my current study regime, and I focus more on problems than on playing games. Like the book said, it's a separate, enjoyable activity for me.

My favorite article about tsumego and reading strength is from tchan's translation of Cho Chikun (requires permission, you may request from tchan via wordpress): https://tchan001.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... lculation/

2 minutes for life and death - I agree with this. In general, I focus on easier problems for my level. I do not find it helpful or enjoyable to stare at a problem for 10 minutes unsolved. While some problems require additional reading time (Book to Increase Your Fighting Strength at Go), that reading time should be spent on progressing with the problem, not on still trying to find the first move and followup. I'm of the belief that solving 5-10 problems completely is more important than spinning your hamster wheel trying to solve 1 problem.

Strengths and Weaknesses
I like what was said about focusing on your strengths first, and only after the plateau, should you start focusing on weaknesses. People are far more motivated by what they enjoy doing. For me, that is tsumego and tesuji problems. I'm not that good at the opening (usually behind in the opening) or endgame, but I'm not terrible in a fight.

Overview
The intro section was mostly about what to study and how to study if you want to get stronger. I think it does a good job of covering that, though its a re-iteration of various advice elsewhere (including GGG's site: https://gogameguru.com/how-to-get-better-at-go/). However, I think it was important to provide these sections in this book. The reiteration helps reinforce these ideas.

studying wrote:Health/Wellness: The more tournaments I play in, the more I appreciate the importance of managing hunger and energy during an intense day of competition. I now always carry snacks and water. I find this makes the biggest difference in late afternoon play, but again, I'd be curious if others have other suggestions.

After work, I don't play before I've had dinner. I haven't yet played in a tournament, but couldn't imagine playing without regular food. I also get migraines if I don't eat in a timely manner, so that definitely encourages me to eat regularly. I think this is an important point though, as poor sleep and diet has been shown to negatively impact performance.

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:12 pm

sparky314 wrote:My favorite article about tsumego and reading strength is from tchan's translation of Cho Chikun (requires permission, you may request from tchan via wordpress): https://tchan001.wordpress.com/2011/06/ ... lculation/

Thanks for posting the link to this article. It makes a good point that in amateur games, the deciding factor for winning and losing is generally calculating strength (which is pretty close to what we typically call reading ability). This would explain why my winning percentages on KGS are MUCH higher against opponents my own level and lower than they are with stronger players, even when I am given a proper handicap. It gives me a clear area to focus on for improvement, too: reading and calculation. It will be interesting to see how I can incorporate that goal into reading Relentless. I've always been a bit intimidated to study Lee Sedol's games because they seem to require so much reading to understand, so perhaps I can use the book as an opportunity to overcome that reluctance.

As for the introduction to Relentless, I appreciated the advice on how to study. I'm going to try to follow their recommendation to play through the game without commentary first, as well as taking a more active approach to understanding the flow of the game. I'm sure it will be a bit challenging at my level, but I expect I'll get some benefit from it.

I also really liked Lee Chango's comments on the relational nature of go. The idea of striving to be at our best with a well known opponent is something that is often lost in the era of internet go. It's part of why I participate here on the forum and have asked a few people here to play with me: I think that the connections we can form over go can bring benefit on and off the board.

Majordomo · Post by **Majordomo** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:15 am

So, I’m kind of cheating - having read it before and gone over the games - but I think doing it again along with all of you will be very insightful.

First - Lee Changho has a very nice prologue, and I took his comment about first playing over the games without commentary to heart - it didn’t really help me all that much but I enjoy placing the stones and at least imagining that I know why they are placed where they are (while wondering why I’d never place them where they do).

In the preface they also talk about the colourful personalities of the past, with Kato, Sakata, Takamiya (Chikun, Otake, Seigen, Minoru ++) etc. This struck a chord, because these (and the other japanese pros of the 70s - 90s) are really the only players I know of, while in today’s cream of the crop I can name a handful but none that come with these fanciful nicknames and accompanying styles. I guess a lot has been said about the influence japan has had on Go in the west, and this is but a legacy of that fact I think. However, when they explain the distinct styles of Gu Li and Lee Sedol it makes me want to learn a bit more about the modern competitive scene and what makes these players distinct and unique in their take(s) on the game.

Their comment about aggression passes me by - it is not a sense of right or wrong that keeps my aggression in check, it is timidness, a fear that my cuts never work and my opponent’s cuts always do. But the moral is the same, and I first picked up Relentless to see and learn from the more “aggressive” style of play (whatever that means at my level - reckless overplay maybe?). I’m learning to love fighting though.

I think I’m the opposite of Sparky - I feel that my opening goes well, and then I see the steady erosion of what I think is my advantage as the game progresses.

Other points - Tsumego, playing games, playing over pro-games, reading books, now I’m doing all that but not as diligently as I did before summer - and I think it shows in my games. This study group is one more effort to make myself study harder and return to new and loftier heights! Also, getting to talk and write about something I like is hard to turn down!

So, how to take this introduction and prologue to heart in my games? I think I’ll ask my teacher to help pinpoint my weaknesses and strengths - and I’ll play slower games again, I’ve been drinking the nectar of blitz and it is scary how fast it made me an impatient reader in my normal games! Also, I’d like to invite you all to say Hi if you see me in the KGS room - I’d love to play any of you and talk over the game after.

Knotwilg · Post by **Knotwilg** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 1:17 pm

Where & when do we meet?

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:15 pm

The first part of the book was easy to read, since it's not into go material, yet. I liked the point about playing slow games and to focus on your strengths. I don't do a lot of studying of pro games.

Regarding the point about focusing on one's strengths... I think I am good at trying to find weakness in my opponent's position, and resisting their plan. I also think that I am decent at counting, and can tell what areas of the board are big. I am not so good, on the other hand, about having good shape, avoiding aji-keshi, making a good plan for myself, playing lightly, and developing my own territory. I also often make reading mistakes.

I like the idea of focusing on weak points when studying, and focusing on strong points while playing. So when studying, I should improve my reading, learn how to play lightly, and figure out how to make a good plan for myself.

---

I don't have many comments to add on the introductory sections of the book, but per our schedule, this week we'll start to study the first game in depth, investigating the commentary.

The suggestion in the book was to take a look at the game prior to reading the commentary to see what my own thoughts were. After that, when going through the commentary, I can see how my thoughts differed and why.

To accommodate this, I took a cursory look through the game, and before each move, thought about where I would play. I remember following the game a couple of years ago live, so I may be subconsciously influenced by that - but that was a long time ago.

I didn't read that deeply, even for life and death situations, but I took some notes on areas where my thoughts of where to play differed from the main line. As we go through the commentary, I'll compare the options I considered to the game and variations proposed in the commentary.

Here is the SGF:

studying · Post by **studying** » Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:06 pm

jeromie wrote:I'm waiting for my copy, too, but the front matter is all available in the sample on the GoGameGuru web site: https://gogameguru.com/i/go-books/samples/relentless-sample.pdf

Thanks! I'm now caught up with this week's reading and have a much better understanding of where people were pulling these principles from. Also, my book just arrived, so I shouldn't have any excuses not to keep up now!

Over the weekend also played through the first game record a few times (amazing what being stuck on a 10 hour flight will do), but I'll admit I haven't had time to really try to do my own analysis of many of the positions. I wish I had taken the time to do something like Kirby did during my first play-through. I'm going to try to remember to do that for the rest of the games.

Life In 19x19

Relentless: Study Group Thread (Intro + January Chapters)

Relentless: Study Group Thread (Intro + January Chapters)

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