GoUniverse (New KGS client)

[KOCMOHABT]

Version 1.2.1

I've decided to release a small update before.

- Added an animated logo when you are connecting to the server. (Hope you will like it)
- The splitter between chat and list of games is draggable now.
- Fixed bug with <gmt> time (used in headers of rooms). Now it shows time with your local time settings.
- Position of splitter between chat and list of games, type of the list of games and last opened chat room now are storing in a local storage, so when you will reconnect to the server this parameters would be the same as they were be last time.
- Fixed serveral minor bugs.

[KOCMOHABT]

Guys, i need your help again.

I'm working on a challenges right now. Is there any good algorithm how to detect by time settings is it blitz/normal/slow.

For example 0 main time + 10 secs per move is obviously a blitz, but 20 min main time + 10 secs per move not a blitz at all, it's more likely normal.

There are three different time systems on KGS: absolute, byo yomi and canadian.

Any ideas? Thanks for any replies.

[uPWarrior]

OGS does that automatically, maybe the algorithm they use is described somewhere? At the very least you can try several combinations and see how they classify them.

By the way, don't forget to take the board size into consideration. OGS considers 10 minutes absolute to be blitz, but for me that's perfectly normal in 9x9.

[KOCMOHABT]

OGS does that automatically, maybe the algorithm they use is described somewhere? At the very least you can try several combinations and see how they classify them.

By the way, don't forget to take the board size into consideration. OGS considers 10 minutes absolute to be blitz, but for me that's perfectly normal in 9x9.

I know about board size. Of course there must be used average count of the moves, and this parameter depends on the board size. Didn't find anything about OGS algorithm.

[EdLee]

20 min main time + 10 secs per move not a blitz at all

That's blitz for some people.

Since KGS's rating doesn't distinguish between different time settings, it means blitz/normal/slow is entirely a subjective and personal preference.

Why not let the user decide what is blitz/normal/slow for themselves ?

Example:

Dialog box: Use (a) main time or (b) byōyomi average to determine blitz/normal/slow. Must pick either (a) or (b).

If (a):
Blitz: < M minutes main time.
Slow: > N minutes main time.
Normal: otherwise.

If (b):
Blitz: < ( X secs / move, average )
Slow: > ( Z secs / move, average )
Normal: otherwise.

Let the user define ( M, N ) or ( X, Z ) ?

My preference: (b) Canadian byoyomi.
Blitz: < ( 90 secs / move, average )
Slow: > ( 300 secs / move, average )
Normal: ( 30 mins. / 20 moves )

[KOCMOHABT]

20 min main time + 10 secs per move not a blitz at all

That's blitz for some people.

Since KGS's rating doesn't distinguish between different time settings, it means blitz/normal/slow is entirely a subjective and personal preference.

Why not let the user decide what is blitz/normal/slow for themselves ?

Example:
Blitz = Less than X seconds per move ( average )
Slow = More than Z seconds per move ( average )
Normal = otherwise.

Let the user define X and Z ?

It's a good idea to let user decide such parameters, but the question is still open, since X maintime + Y sec per move = Z seconds per move, how to achive Z by X and Y.

[ez4u]

What's the point in a KGS client?

[KOCMOHABT]

What's the point in a KGS client?

1. No need java anymore
2. No need any installations at all, only browser is needed.
3. Cross-platform
4. You can use it even if your CGoban-ports are closed (like in my situation)
5. Many new features that already done.
6. It will be common client not only for KGS (as minimum OGS and IGS will be supported too)
7. New features that will be coming, going to do something special, you will see it in next summer.

[ez4u]

Sorry, I meant what is the point of distinguishing blitz etc. if KGS does not use such distinctions?

[KOCMOHABT]

Sorry, I meant what is the point of distinguishing blitz etc. if KGS does not use such distinctions?

Dunno, maybe as an additional feature. Perhaps it is not so important, since you will be able to see time preferences before opening a certain challenge.
List of challenges will be something like this

[Uberdude]

That's good to show open challenges' time settings in the grid so you can see all at once (like CGoban-h), instead of one-at-a-time mouseover (like CGoban). Btw KGS automatch does have a named time system of :

- Blitz: 1m+3*10s
- Fast: 10m+5*20s
- Medium: 25m+5*30s

[Chidorin]

finally you've released it! was looking forward to it for so long, keep it up!

p.s. may be mirror icon so it will be like new born moon?

[jeromie]

since X maintime + Y sec per move = Z seconds per move, how to achive Z by X and Y.

My proposal for Z would be max(X/125, Y/number of moves per byo-yomi), which handles both regular and Canadian byo-yomi. It's not perfect, but estimating about 125 moves per player leads to a reasonable result for most cases.

Based on how the language is used in KGS, I would say a Z of 10 seconds or less is blitz, 20 seconds or less is fast, and 30 seconds or less is medium.

Edited to add: though I agree that this is not an important part of the user interface is you're clearly showing times on the challenge screen. That's a big improvement over the CGoban interface!

Edited again: Maybe this doesn't quite work... that would put one hour main time with no byo yomi as 28.8 seconds per move, and few on KGS would call that fast. Perhaps if you tweak the number of moves per player, you can find a reasonable result. 100 seems to work better.

[Calvin Clark]

What's the point in a KGS client?

1. No need java anymore
2. No need any installations at all, only browser is needed.
3. Cross-platform
4. You can use it even if your CGoban-ports are closed (like in my situation)
5. Many new features that already done.
6. It will be common client not only for KGS (as minimum OGS and IGS will be supported too)
7. New features that will be coming, going to do something special, you will see it in next summer.

You can probably reverse-engineer the terms that appear in the KGS: New Game dialog in CGoban. As you tweak the time settings it will say Time (Blitz) and if you dial it really low (Ultra Blitz). But there are odd cutoffs if you explore it.

In byoyomi all three of main time, byoyomi time and byoyomi periods count. For example, 0+5x0:08 is blitz, but 0+1x0:08 is ultra blitz. 0+5x0:07 is ultra. Adding just 2 seconds of main time to the 0+1x0:08 to make it 0:02+1x0:08 is enough to make ultra blitz into blitz.

While it is possible to copy these, since the server doesn't care they are just a way of providing feedback to the users. One time I tried to figure this out but decided it was foolish. Everyone has their own idea, so why not let users provide their own cutoffs in your settings. (Edit: I see EdLee suggested that already.) I would provide a curve dragging control that allows adjustment of the multidimensional boundary that separates blitz from non-blitz games and then color code the game list but that is just me.

[ez4u]

...
You can probably reverse-engineer the terms that appear in the KGS: New Game dialog in CGoban. As you tweak the time settings it will say Time (Blitz) and if you dial it really low (Ultra Blitz). But there are odd cutoffs if you explore it.

In byoyomi all three of main time, byoyomi time and byoyomi periods count. For example, 0+5x0:08 is blitz, but 0+1x0:08 is ultra blitz. 0+5x0:07 is ultra. Adding just 2 seconds of main time to the 0+1x0:08 to make it 0:02+1x0:08 is enough to make ultra blitz into blitz.

While it is possible to copy these, since the server doesn't care they are just a way of providing feedback to the users. One time I tried to figure this out but decided it was foolish. Everyone has their own idea, so why not let users provide their own cutoffs in your settings. (Edit: I see EdLee suggested that already.) I would provide a curve dragging control that allows adjustment of the multidimensional boundary that separates blitz from non-blitz games and then color code the game list but that is just me.

The only one that means something to the server is "ultra blitz" I believe. Games with too short a time limit can not be rated games. I am not sure that it is all "ultra blitz" games or a subset. In the past wms had a page linked to the help file with some research he had done on the effect of very short time limits. Basically at about 7 seconds per move or less the rating system became unreliable as a predictor of the game results. (Unfortunately that page seems to be gone these days.) As a result, the server checks and rejects a rated game with too short time limits. Unfortunately the rejection message just says you need more time, not how much more.

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