Why do some people never reach shodan

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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:On artificial problems and efficiency of learning

Here is a position that may never have occurred in a game (outside of beginner's games, OC).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ --------------
$$ | O . . . O X .
$$ | . . . . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...
As it turns out, there are a couple of nice lessons to the play. Dan players already know them, so they only have to read 4 moves deep, at most. But what about, say, 9 kyus. Some of them might not know those lessons. Is this problem the most efficient way to teach those lessons to them? I think not.
Two points:
(1) Studying a go problem is "efficient" if the level is appropriate for the learner. If this go problem is too difficult for a 9 kyu, I agree that it might not be the most "efficient" way to study.

(2) Solving a problem of appropriate difficulty has value, even if the position doesn't occur in a real game. Let's say that we give this problem to someone of the appropriate skill level, such that it's a "good" problem for them to solve. By iterating through variations that don't work to find the solution, the solver has exercised his/her capacity to visualize and evaluate a position. That's the real value in the problem.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Kirby »

In many areas of my life, I'm realizing the importance of balance. There are activities that are fun right now, but I may regret later. There are activities that are not fun now, but may be good for the future. Balance is important to maximize enjoyment.

In another thread, I compared the value of getting immediate territory vs. having influence which would result in territory later in the game. Go is a game of balance in this regard: both territory and influence are valuable in their own ways, and depending on the situation, one or the other might be better or more efficient.

Here we have a debate between the "efficiency" of studying pro games and doing go problems. They have different, yet complimentary attributes. Go problems have value in that they force active thinking and exercise of your brain to find the correct solution independently. On the downside, they may not always be representative of real situations. Pro games have value in that they are, by definition, real situations. On the downside, they may not always require as much critical thinking as a go problem.

I'd argue that doing all of one or the other is not balanced. If you only go through pro games and never do go problems, you lack the benefit of the concentrated active thinking required to solve go problems; if you only do go problems, maybe you are good at reading and visualizing, but lack sense in the big picture or flow of the game.

So, this entire discussion on which is "most efficient" is rather silly. It's good to reap the benefits of both as appropriate. If you lack reading power, go problems will certainly be an efficient way to benefit this. If you lack flow and direction in your games, then studying pro games must be an efficient way to see good examples.

We don't need to find one single action that is the "most efficient" way to study, because that doesn't exist. The answer, as in other areas of life, is balance.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Knotwilg »

White is alive
The 4 interesting points are mutually equivalent.
There is a kind of uts involved
Good problem!
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:On artificial problems and efficiency of learning

Here is a position that may never have occurred in a game (outside of beginner's games, OC).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Black to play
$$ --------------
$$ | O . . . O X .
$$ | . . . . O X .
$$ | O O O O O X .
$$ | X X X X X X .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]
...
As it turns out, there are a couple of nice lessons to the play. Dan players already know them, so they only have to read 4 moves deep, at most. But what about, say, 9 kyus. Some of them might not know those lessons. Is this problem the most efficient way to teach those lessons to them? I think not.
Two points:
(1) Studying a go problem is "efficient" if the level is appropriate for the learner. If this go problem is too difficult for a 9 kyu, I agree that it might not be the most "efficient" way to study.
I don't know the level of this problem. If I had to guess, it may be around 7 kyu. But the appropriate level of difficulty is one with around a 50% chance of being solved.
(2) Solving a problem of appropriate difficulty has value, even if the position doesn't occur in a real game. Let's say that we give this problem to someone of the appropriate skill level, such that it's a "good" problem for them to solve. By iterating through variations that don't work to find the solution, the solver has exercised his/her capacity to visualize and evaluate a position. That's the real value in the problem.
Oh, I agree that this problem has value, even though it is artificial. I say as much here. http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 58#p197058

My main argument with the reading only approach is that, for amateurs and especially kyu players, it relies upon learning lessons that could be taught otherwise. And more efficiently, IMO.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Kirby »

Bill Spight wrote:My main argument with the reading only approach is that, for amateurs and especially kyu players, it relies upon learning lessons that could be taught otherwise. And more efficiently, IMO.
Agree. I guess my current view can be summed up as:
  1. I'm skeptical that pro games are the most efficient way to improve, if we have to select only one type of study.
  2. I've had some success with go problems, and it's the most efficient single study method that I know of right now, if we have to select only one type of study.
  3. Studying more than one thing (go problems, in combination with games, in combination with other stuff like lectures, etc.) is probably more efficient than studying by any one particular method.
  4. I haven't had much success with studying pro games in the past, but I'm giving it another shot, and am open to changing my view on its efficacy.
I actually scheduled out this week's study yesterday for myself. On Tuesday (tonight), Thursday, and Sunday, I will go over a pro game around 9pm Pacific time. On Wednesday and Friday, I will play a game at the same time. Tuesday through Friday, I will go over Train Like a Pro problems.

I think it's a balanced schedule of problems, pro game review, and my own games. It's my first week with this particular combination, so I'll see how it goes. If I don't think something is working out, I'll switch things around for next week.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Bill Spight »

Kirby wrote:I think it's a balanced schedule of problems, pro game review, and my own games. It's my first week with this particular combination, so I'll see how it goes. If I don't think something is working out, I'll switch things around for next week.
More power to you. :)

When I was 4 dan with a goal of 6 dan in two years I divided a three hour study session equally among problems, pro games, and my own games: 1 hour for 4 problems -- they were hard ;) --, 1 hour for a pro game, and 1 hour for reviewing one of my own games.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by jeromie »

I think there are two key questions that govern this turn in the conversation:
  • Is it better to pursue explicit or implicit knowledge to continue to make gains in strength? (i.e. reading ability or pattern recognition)
  • If we assume that implicit knowledge is important, then what is the best way to gain that knowledge?
Most of us agree that both implicit and explicit knowledge are important; we all need a sense of where to play and the reading ability to confirm our intuition. Where we find the appropriate balance is one of the determining factors in our approach to go.

Tsumego can be used to train either reading ability or intuition. When we are first starting out, a lot of the go problems we do are helping us internalize basic shapes so that we can spot the vital point right away. They are training our ability to visualize situations and look ahead on the board at the same time. However, as problem sets grow more complex we often see less repetition of basic shapes and a greater emphasis on pure reading ability. (This is of course not universally true, but the highly lauded Graded Go Problems for Beginners series is a good example of this phenomenon. Book 4 has much less emphasis on recognizing common shapes than previous volumes.) I think this is the point where John suggests a different approach may be needed. (If I've misunderstood, please correct me.)

It's pretty common for folks who get stuck in the SDK range to complain about not knowing where to play once the basic fuseki has been played but a local fight has not yet broken out. We've trained our life and death ability to a reasonable level (again, not universal, and of course we can still improve!) but we miss the forest for the trees. The kind of problem sets that most of us pick up at this level won't help us with that problem. It's tempting to fill in the gaps with explicit knowledge about the direction of play or invading moyos or appropriate reducing moves, but often times the lessons we pick up don't stick because we haven't primed our pattern recognition pumps. In this case, going through a large number of professional games seems like a reasonable way to continue to develop the implicit knowledge that is important at this stage. The benefit is not likely to be limited to strategic notions; we can gain implicit knowledge about key points in fighting the same way. (Note that this is different from the type of study we're doing in the Relentless thread right now, where we are going through one game in detail and trying to explicitly understand what is happening.)

I do think that improvement will require a balance of work on pattern recognition / reading strength, but I don't think that balance necessarily means doing both equally all the time. In fact, this might be counterproductive. If you want to learn from pattern matching, you may need to immerse yourself in that method for a while. If you want to really improve your reading ability, you may need to focus on nothing else for a time. When we do a little of this and a little of that, it's possible that we're not doing enough of either to be effective. (Note: the above statements are conjecture. I don't have evidence one way or the other.) With this in mind, I think John's advice makes sense for someone who is stuck: immerse yourself in training your pattern recognition ability for a time. Looking at a large number of professional games is probably the best way to do this once you've reached a certain level. If you've given that a sufficient amount of time to be effective and you've stopped seeing improvement, maybe that's a good time to switch to making some of the lessons you picked up explicit or working on your reading ability for a while.

There's a lot of room for individual differences in this approach. If you keep getting stronger by studying fighting technique, have at it! If you keep growing while studying pro games, persist by all means! If mixing your methods of study works, great! We're all likely to have different strengths and weaknesses and different ways of approaching the game, and I doubt there are enough data to make a universal determination about the best approach. But I do think that we tend to get stuck in a rut regarding our approach to study, and trying something novel is a good way to get your brain to reengage with the learning process.

(Haha, as I was writing this Kirby suggested that mixing study types is probably most efficient. I've added a few more "this is conjecture" disclaimers to my original post. ;-) )
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by daal »

Maybe you are right that some people never reach shodan because they give up on improving, because they don't study in the right way and because they don't study the right things. Perhaps my assumption, that some people don't have the talent to reach shodan, is wrong. I've decided that I am going to keep trying to improve, and the way I'm going to do that is to replace a lot of my online playing with studying, and keeping a journal like everybody else does. Oh, I already have a journal - just that I haven't written anything in it for three years... ;-) Time to dust off that board and those books.
Last edited by daal on Fri Sep 30, 2016 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by RobertJasiek »

jeromie wrote:
  • Is it better to pursue explicit or implicit knowledge to continue to make gains in strength? (i.e. reading ability or pattern recognition)
  • If we assume that implicit knowledge is important, then what is the best way to gain that knowledge?
Whatever you mean implicit knowledge to be, if you think that it were relevant, in practice during the games, always check preliminary decisions based on implicit knowledge by verification with explicit knowledge. (E.g., you think that a static pattern is nice. Assess its dynamic development. Verify the connection status, life status, efficiency etc. by reading, counting etc. for every moment of dynamic development. I.e., replace subconscious guessing by conscious verification.)
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Bill Spight »

jeromie wrote:I think there are two key questions that govern this turn in the conversation:
  • Is it better to pursue explicit or implicit knowledge to continue to make gains in strength? (i.e. reading ability or pattern recognition)
  • If we assume that implicit knowledge is important, then what is the best way to gain that knowledge?
I do not think that reading ability is explicit knowledge and pattern recognition is implicit knowledge. Pattern recognition is explicit. This is the vital point; this is the eye stealing tesuji; this is a backsnap; this is a throw in that takes away a potential liberty; etc. Reading ability makes use of both explicit and implicit knowledge, as a rule. Brute force search does not in general work. Also, judgement may be required to evaluate the results of search.

Also, humans are skillful at intuiting patterns, correctly or incorrectly. So there is no dichotomy between improving explicit and implicit knowledge. As we learn explicit knowledge, intuition increases, as well. OC, intuition must be tested to become judgement. Experience matters. :)
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by globulon »

Bill Spight wrote:When I was 4 dan with a goal of 6 dan in two years I divided a three hour study session equally among problems, pro games, and my own games: 1 hour for 4 problems -- they were hard ;) --, 1 hour for a pro game, and 1 hour for reviewing one of my own games.

Did you make your goal? Just curious how strong you are now?
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Satorian »

Bill Spight wrote:
jeromie wrote:I think there are two key questions that govern this turn in the conversation:
  • Is it better to pursue explicit or implicit knowledge to continue to make gains in strength? (i.e. reading ability or pattern recognition)
  • If we assume that implicit knowledge is important, then what is the best way to gain that knowledge?
I do not think that reading ability is explicit knowledge and pattern recognition is implicit knowledge. Pattern recognition is explicit. This is the vital point; this is the eye stealing tesuji; this is a backsnap; this is a throw in that takes away a potential liberty; etc. Reading ability makes use of both explicit and implicit knowledge, as a rule. Brute force search does not in general work. Also, judgement may be required to evaluate the results of search.

Also, humans are skillful at intuiting patterns, correctly or incorrectly. So there is no dichotomy between improving explicit and implicit knowledge. As we learn explicit knowledge, intuition increases, as well. OC, intuition must be tested to become judgement. Experience matters. :)

Totally agree. We typically think (and in Go terms also read) in chunks when working memory is concerned. And we are typically able to manage 7+-2 chunks on average. It's just that for a beginner, a single move constitutes a chunk. For someone more advanced, things like throw-ins and immediate snap-backs or other common sequences two or three moves deep constitute a chunk, while for a pro it might be the large avalanche plus a handful of complex tesujis in a row.

Those patterns we absorb when playing and solving tsumegos turn into the chunks we use when reading on the board and thinking about our options. So it makes sense to study shape and tesuji and joseki on their own or in game reviews, while of course doing tsumego as well for the ability to string all those chunks together.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by daal »

Satorian wrote:We typically think (and in Go terms also read) in chunks when working memory is concerned. And we are typically able to manage 7+-2 chunks on average. It's just that for a beginner, a single move constitutes a chunk.
Yes. And even at 5k, my chunks are more like crumbs.

Starting in on my program to improve, I looked over a pro game today and commented what I thought I would do at each move. I think this is a good way of showing kyu level thought (what my explicit knowledge is) and what a gap exists to dan level thought. Some comments on my comments:

1. I got tired after looking at about 70 moves.
2. Despite having a similar objective as the pro in some situations, I did not consider some of their moves at all. As always when I do this exercise, it was interesting to see where the pro found more ambitious moves.
3. Only two or three times did I try to read more that 3 moves.
4. When I wanted to count, I was not able to.
5. Some of my moves were not so bad.

If you would like to see or comment on the game, it's over on my journal.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Bill Spight »

globulon wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:When I was 4 dan with a goal of 6 dan in two years I divided a three hour study session equally among problems, pro games, and my own games: 1 hour for 4 problems -- they were hard ;) --, 1 hour for a pro game, and 1 hour for reviewing one of my own games.

Did you make your goal? Just curious how strong you are now?
I reached a 6 dan rating, but did not hold on to it.
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Re: Why do some people never reach shodan

Post by Kirby »

daal wrote:Perhaps my assumption, that some people don't have the talent to reach shodan, is wrong.
Nobody knows for sure whether they have enough talent to do something. You will never know what could happen, unless you invest the time doing it. The question is, should you invest your time (and if so, how much)?

To make an informed decision, be honest with yourself, and ask yourself two questions:
  1. How much do I want to become shodan?
  2. If I invest X-amount of time studying, what are my actual chances of becoming shodan? You can take into account talent, the time you'll likely spend, etc.
Image

The chart above shows four quadrants, based on two dimensions corresponding to the questions above:
  1. Your desire to become shodan.
  2. The chances you will become shodan by investing X-amount of time to study.
From this chart, two quadrants are easy to answer:
  1. If you have high desire to become shodan, and high chance of becoming shodan if you study for X-amount of time, then why not? Study and invest that time!
  2. If you have low desire to become shodan, and low chance of becoming shodan, then perhaps it's not worth your time.
The tricky quadrants, of course, are the other two, which I've denoted with question marks:
  1. If you have high desire to become shodan, but low chances, should you study?
  2. If you have a good chance of becoming shodan by investing X-amount of time, but you have low desire to become shodan, should you study?
I thought about it for some time, and the conclusion I came to is simple: Your desire to study should dictate your action in these cases. If you enjoy the time you spend studying, then it's worthy of your time, even if you have low chances of becoming shodan. And it's also worthy of your time, even if you have low desire to become shodan. Conversely, of course, if you don't enjoy studying, then don't do it for either of these quadrants. Why invest your time studying if you don't enjoy it and probably won't become shodan anyway? Or why invest your time studying if you don't enjoy it, and don't want to become shodan anyway?

For simplicity of illustration, I've made things somewhat discrete: study X-amount of time or don't study X-amount of time. In reality, it might be optimal for you to take a more balanced approach. For example, maybe you don't have high desire to study for 8 hours every day. But maybe you enjoy studying for a couple of hours now and then.

In any case, maybe this type of decision making approach could be beneficial.
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