Why do some people never reach shodan

[Kirby]

I agree with that, too. But I don't think hostility is productive. Maybe if you're the one trying to improve, stay focused on your goal. Likewise, it may be kind to acknowledge to weaker players that they may have worked just as hard (or harder) than you (though, this seems difficult to prove one way or another - who knows who "really" worked harder).

[Tumtumtum]

Lulullul 5k plateau... I would very surprised if the normal plateau was at as low as 5d.

[Gotraskhalana]

I find it interesting that people get upset at the concept of some people having natural talent.

It is mostly defensiveness, and I don't mean this in a negative way. It is very well studied that children who are taught that, say, skill in mathematics is mostly related to effort do better than children who are taught it is mostly related to talent. Of course, it is still related to talent, but thinking too much about this keeps you from reaching your potential. So, no wonder that many good dan players are convinced that they reached their level just by hard work, because it is this attitude in addition to their talent that helped them gain their level.

It is the same reason why people who tend to gain weight when stressed out get very defensive when well-meaning people try to "convince" them that being overweight is bad. The defensive people know that they will never lose their weight while being stressed out about being overweight.

So, success is a lot about tricking your own mind. If you are stuck at a certain rank, maybe you should read some Zen-koans.
This: http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/8greatwaves.html
and this:
A man came to Tao-hsin and said: "Please help me,"
Tao-hsin asked him "What is wrong with you?"
„This question is too difficult. Please help me.“
Tao-hsin replied: „There is nothing wrong with you.“
Disappointed the man left.
What a bad teacher Tao-hsin was.

[Kirby]

Saw this article on the AGA website, and it reminded me of this thread

From the article:

Hymer also expounded on some mindset myths, which included the belief that natural ability and talent don’t exist, or that they don’t matter, and that hard work guarantees ultimate success. Instead, multiple factors come into play to create success, including what Hymer calls metacognitive strategies (how we think about thinking). Hymer noted Gary Kasparov, from the chess world, felt the same way: “It’s not enough to work hard and study late into the night. You must also become intimately aware of the methods you use to reach your decisions.” In a later presentation, Hymer discussed some educational studies with a few surprising results, including that praising students does not lead to any greater level of excellence or even motivation. Negative feedback also does not help.

Instead, Hymer advocates engaged, attentive, and non-judgmental feedback, which he said helps create self-motivated students who then cultivate the love of learning for themselves. These types of students outperform all other categories by as much as 30%, said Hymer. An example of this from the go community would be the kinds of questions one asks in a teaching game: “What were you hoping to achieve when you went here? How do you think your opponent might respond? Were there other places you thought of playing, and why?” Getting a student to think about how they reached their decisions is key to creating autonomous learners in Hymer’s approach.

I guess his take is largely a growth mindset, but also the awareness that the method you use to achieve your goal should be deliberate and efficient (just my interpretation from the text - I wasn't at the talk).

[JoeS1]

This is a great question. I signed up for this. I'm a little late to the party, but here are my thoughts.

I enjoy Go. But I haven't had the best experiences with the community. Not talking about 19x19, as I'm unfamiliar but the overall Western community. Besides just talent, which is somewhat uncontrollable, I think there are factors within the community that are controllable that do contribute to people stalling around shodan and even higher than shodan.

The community isn't always very friendly or open about discussing Go. There are typically several hundred people on KGS yet there is almost never any discussion about Go or high level Go. No Dan level players discussing how to help people around the kyu level. You typically only ever see people around 5kyu and weaker ever talk. I've asked questions and seen questions asked, but even though there are 500 people online only 1 or 2 talk. So if you want to ask dan level players for their thoughts on improving or books to get at your level, you get no answer.

It's tough to say, but I don't think the Go community has grown much in the West over the past several years. The numbers look about the same as they were years ago. That's another problem lack of growth. Maybe it would be better if we could play in person. I think there is probably quite the community around LA and New York, but the rest of country appears to be lacking if you want to play in person. I don't know maybe it's just me, but it seems difficult to make friends online. It's like it's difficult to make a connection with people. So it makes it tough for people to come together and be a community and care about one another.

Lack of knowledge on the subject in the West would be another one. A lot of people have to resort to books to learn unless they can afford to get lessons from Pros regularly. While there are plenty of books around the beginner level, once you start to approach shodan level there become fewer and fewer books to get that help explore and master the basics. That's what I think is key books that spend the entire book focusing on a concept, like aji, or sabaki, or invasion, etc. So that you can learn and master it. Not like the beginner books that only spend a chapter and a few examples on it. I feel like I have major weaknesses when it comes to the fundamentals that could be addressed but no one, even when I've played pros have been able to tell me what my weaknesses are and what I should work on. They just tell you 1-2 mistakes you make and that's it. Kind of difficult to grow from that.

I bought some Korean books a few years back. They are pretty popular, the Encyclopedia of Tesuji and Dictionary of Shape. The books were incredibly helpful and detailed. Formatted incredibly well. Why aren't they and books like this translated to English for the West? I know there are some pros in the West. Korean pros who know English, maybe some Chinese as well. It would be nice if we got some translations of whatever definitive books are out there in the East. Yet, nothing against Kiseido, but they appear to be publishing books by amateurs still with the Roadmap to Shodan series. I haven't read these books, but from the few reviews I've read they aren't very good. But since they are publishing new books, the money has to be there for translations of Go Books from South Korea or China. Seems like a no brainer to me to make money.

Another thing with intermediate and advanced books, is there aren't very many reviews on them. One or two doesn't really inspire confidence, especially when you have people around 5kyu to 8kyu typically doing the reviews. It would be nice if we had dans regularly reviewing books that way we had more of a consensus on what books to get at each level, how books compare to each other and what books really stand out. It would be really great if Pros could get a chance to take a look at many of our books and give their recommendations as well. Tell us which are good, and how they compare to books they used to study when they were learning.

People are less likely to quit if they have a direction to go in. The more dans in the community the more competition there will be. The more high level discussion there will be as well. There is also a higher likelihood that they can set up clubs where they'll be confident to teach. This seems like simple stuff that could help grow the community, but hasn't been done at all over the past several years as I've played Go.

[Bill Spight]

It's tough to say, but I don't think the Go community has grown much in the West over the past several years. The numbers look about the same as they were years ago.

This is not a new thing. For several years the membership of the AGA was around 600.

While there are plenty of books around the beginner level, once you start to approach shodan level there become fewer and fewer books to get that help explore and master the basics.
{snip}

I bought some Korean books a few years back. They are pretty popular, the Encyclopedia of Tesuji and Dictionary of Shape. The books were incredibly helpful and detailed. Formatted incredibly well. Why aren't they and books like this translated to English for the West?

Actually, the first Ishi Press books were at a high level. Unfortunately, from what I hear, dan level books in English do not yet sell well. I expect that that will change in time, but it could take a long time.

[JoeS1]

It's tough to say, but I don't think the Go community has grown much in the West over the past several years. The numbers look about the same as they were years ago.

This is not a new thing. For several years the membership of the AGA was around 600.

While there are plenty of books around the beginner level, once you start to approach shodan level there become fewer and fewer books to get that help explore and master the basics.
{snip}

I bought some Korean books a few years back. They are pretty popular, the Encyclopedia of Tesuji and Dictionary of Shape. The books were incredibly helpful and detailed. Formatted incredibly well. Why aren't they and books like this translated to English for the West?

Actually, the first Ishi Press books were at a high level. Unfortunately, from what I hear, dan level books in English do not yet sell well. I expect that that will change in time, but it could take a long time.

Well I can't speak to AGA. I don't think anyone's going to purchase a membership with them if there is no one or even just a few people to play in their area. I was more speaking the online community hasn't really grown much from what I could see. In fact there were stronger players on KGS more regularly many years ago, judging by the few times I've been on recently. There haven't been many new books published, and there still isn't much info out there in the form of reviews or dan level commentary about Go.

About the book stuff. I know some of the older books from the 60s and 70s were high level, but I was talking about more modern (past 10-15 years) books as Go has changed a lot. The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger. They could focus on each concept and fundamental and helping players understand and master it. As far as I know the only Dan book level series out there is Graded Go Problems for Dans, but not very many reviews out there. So I have no idea if they are worth getting. Only reviews I remember seeing were from kyu level players and didn't go into depth much about the books. Kind of hard to know if even helped them at all considering they were still kyu at time of the review. But looking at book prices, I know I've spent hundreds of dollars on books over the years. It's kind of an expensive hobby as there is so much knowledge and so many concepts out there on it.

Another idea I'll throw out there that I had for a book.
Have pros play amateurs around 3-5 dan at least KGS in even games. Maybe even a few around 1 dan KGS. But have Pros play amateurs in even games so normal josekis can be played. About 50-100 games. Then have them review the games, publish the more interesting ones. The reason I said probably 50-100 isn't to publish them all, but to see if there are common mistakes amateurs make that they don't know, that pros can correct. I don't expect the games will all be interesting but some of the most interesting ones could be published. That might be a popular book if you get some top pros to do it as sort of a charitable thing.

[Shenoute]

Hello JoeS1 and welcome to the forum!

While I agree that more book reviews would be welcome, there are many things in your posts I rather disagree with, I hope this post doesn't come off as pretentious or the like.

The community isn't always very friendly or open about discussing Go. There are typically several hundred people on KGS yet there is almost never any discussion about Go or high level Go. No Dan level players discussing how to help people around the kyu level. You typically only ever see people around 5kyu and weaker ever talk. I've asked questions and seen questions asked, but even though there are 500 people online only 1 or 2 talk. So if you want to ask dan level players for their thoughts on improving or books to get at your level, you get no answer.

Well, I don't play too much on KGS but when I do I don't spend my time looking at the discussions in various rooms, so yes I guess questions would largely go unnoticed there. On the other hand, several ddk/sdk players have asked me things in private (teaching games, questions about one of their games, etc) and I always took time to play/comment/answer them.

Lack of knowledge on the subject in the West would be another one. A lot of people have to resort to books to learn unless they can afford to get lessons from Pros regularly. While there are plenty of books around the beginner level, once you start to approach shodan level there become fewer and fewer books to get that help explore and master the basics. That's what I think is key books that spend the entire book focusing on a concept, like aji, or sabaki, or invasion, etc. So that you can learn and master it. Not like the beginner books that only spend a chapter and a few examples on it. I feel like I have major weaknesses when it comes to the fundamentals that could be addressed but no one, even when I've played pros have been able to tell me what my weaknesses are and what I should work on. They just tell you 1-2 mistakes you make and that's it. Kind of difficult to grow from that.

I can only speak from my experience but, having played hundreds (thousands?) of handicap games as white, it is my opinion that not commenting about too many things is more efficient than commenting about a lot of moves. I now make sure to hammer in one or two ideas/sequences per game. And even then, it takes people a long time to integrate these in their games. Repetition is key here, more than diversity I think.

People are less likely to quit if they have a direction to go in. The more dans in the community the more competition there will be. The more high level discussion there will be as well. There is also a higher likelihood that they can set up clubs where they'll be confident to teach. This seems like simple stuff that could help grow the community, but hasn't been done at all over the past several years as I've played Go.

In my experience people don't come (and stay) to a go club because of the competition but because of the friendly atmosphere. Sure, discussion about the technical aspects of the game (wether high-level or not) is necessary but I would not say it is the primary reason people come.

About the book stuff. I know some of the older books from the 60s and 70s were high level, but I was talking about more modern (past 10-15 years) books as Go has changed a lot.

Not sure that go has changed that much over the last decades. And as far as we, weak amateurs, are concerned I don't think there's anything to be learned about go that cannot be learned from older books.

The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger. They could focus on each concept and fundamental and helping players understand and master it. As far as I know the only Dan book level series out there is Graded Go Problems for Dans,

But this kind of material already exists. How would you rate a book like Attack and Defense? It is one of my favorite books and I don't feel like I'll ever be able to master its contents entirely. I don't think the divide between kyu/dan material is a really valid or useful one. There so many things dan players do not know or master, even things found in books that are supposedly aimed at lower levels.

It's kind of an expensive hobby as there is so much knowledge and so many concepts out there on it.

To me, this is related to the point above. I don't think there are so much concepts to be learned or so many books to be bought. The problem, as I see it, is more about understanding (deceptively) simple concepts in a finer way as one improves. Ideas/concepts like "urgent before big"/"don't play close to thickness" are simple and a 20k can understand the basic idea behind them. But to apply them in your games and understanding what really is "big", "urgent" and "thickness" is a never ending quest and I don't think this can be helped by buying plenty of books. Here also, I think repetition is key, one good book (or chapter of a book) and plenty of games played/commented could be enough.

Another idea I'll throw out there that I had for a book.
Have pros play amateurs around 3-5 dan at least KGS in even games. Maybe even a few around 1 dan KGS. But have Pros play amateurs in even games so normal josekis can be played. About 50-100 games. Then have them review the games, publish the more interesting ones. The reason I said probably 50-100 isn't to publish them all, but to see if there are common mistakes amateurs make that they don't know, that pros can correct. I don't expect the games will all be interesting but some of the most interesting ones could be published. That might be a popular book if you get some top pros to do it as sort of a charitable thing.

Why dismiss handicap games?

[Gotraskhalana]

So if you want to ask dan level players for their thoughts on improving or books to get at your level, you get no answer.

I am mostly on ogs and people certainly get responses. I cannot vouch for kgs, but I certainly got reviews in the teaching ladder the few times I asked for them, so I expect that it is simply a matter of asking. But honestly, I found lists of books to read on sensei's library, here and on various blogs, so it never occurred to me to ask this question because it is abundantly answered and discussed. In my home city, shodan players improve by going to the lessons of the 5 dan players. (EGF ranks, BTW.) There is also an extensive go library in the club that also sells the most popular books, so you can browse and borrow them first before you decide to buy them.

I bought some Korean books a few years back. They are pretty popular, the Encyclopedia of Tesuji and Dictionary of Shape. The books were incredibly helpful and detailed. Formatted incredibly well. Why aren't they and books like this translated to English for the West? I know there are some pros in the West. Korean pros who know English, maybe some Chinese as well. It would be nice if we got some translations of whatever definitive books are out there in the East. Yet, nothing against Kiseido, but they appear to be publishing books by amateurs still with the Roadmap to Shodan series. I haven't read these books, but from the few reviews I've read they aren't very good. But since they are publishing new books, the money has to be there for translations of Go Books from South Korea or China. Seems like a no brainer to me to make money.

It isn't go-specific that beginners' books sell and advanced books don't. You make more money with "Solved Exercices for high school algebra" and "Ten easy steps to ace your calculus class" than with "On modular representations of simple Lie algebras".

[Uberdude]

Just a few ad-hoc comments

The community isn't always very friendly or open about discussing Go. There are typically several hundred people on KGS yet there is almost never any discussion about Go or high level Go. No Dan level players discussing how to help people around the kyu level. You typically only ever see people around 5kyu and weaker ever talk. I've asked questions and seen questions asked, but even though there are 500 people online only 1 or 2 talk. So if you want to ask dan level players for their thoughts on improving or books to get at your level, you get no answer.

Years ago I used to be active on KGS, kibitzing in the top games, answering kyus's questions and reviewing in the KTL, Beginner's room or ASR, but no longer do so due to changing priorities and mean admins.

I was more speaking the online community hasn't really grown much from what I could see. In fact there were stronger players on KGS more regularly many years ago, judging by the few times I've been on recently.

Agreed, I think a lot of this is due to English clients for Asian servers where you can find more stronger players, and probably some to KGS's technical decay and Java troubles.

Maybe it would be better if we could play in person. I think there is probably quite the community around LA and New York, but the rest of country appears to be lacking if you want to play in person. I don't know maybe it's just me, but it seems difficult to make friends online. It's like it's difficult to make a connection with people. So it makes it tough for people to come together and be a community and care about one another.

Maybe that's a downside of living in such a vast country as the USA. I've made plenty of friends though Go both online and in real-life (plus meeting my wife!). Travelling to European Go Congress, Go camps, Asian Go holidays/tournaments takes time/money/effort but is well worth it.

About recent dan-level books, are you aware of Lee Sedol's commentaries, the 2 Shuko 'Only Move' books, Ma Xiaochun's 36 Stratagems, Relentless, John Fairbairn's Go Seigen series, Takao's new joseki dictionaries, Kim Sung Rae's 21st century opening series, Hinoki press? Some of those commentary books are not so much dan-only theory but I think dans can learn plenty from them but in a less spoon-fed 'here's the theory' way. For dan-level problem books they don't really need to be in English (though there are a few more like Yilun Yang's) and Asian ones like Lee Changho's series or classical collections do the job fine. As for a wish list of dan-level theory books, I'd like things like "The timing of 3-3 invasions". I've done sdk lectures on that topic; I'm sure one could write a fascinating 200-page dan-level book on the subject, but is there a market to make it worthwhile?

[RobertJasiek]

JoeS1, I reply in these threads:
(books)
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 17&t=13696
(teaching)
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 16&t=13697
(go communities)
http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 10&t=13698

[sybob]

Hello JoeS1,
While I do understand some of your remarks, I want to share my experience and impression about the go community.

I think, both in real life as on line on KGS, the go community overall is pretty friendly. Most people, also dans and high dans, seem very helpful to me. On this forum too. Both at the club (in Europe) and on KGS, you can ask questions, play teaching games, have your games reviewed, etc, in my experience. Sorry to hear you see things differently. Don't let an incident you may have had trouble your general view towards go.

[Bill Spight]

The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger.

I imagine that there are a lot of intermediate level books in English. You might check with daal, who has a library of some 70 go books. (See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 37#p211237 )

[JoeS1]

Hello JoeS1 and welcome to the forum!

While I agree that more book reviews would be welcome, there are many things in your posts I rather disagree with, I hope this post doesn't come off as pretentious or the like.

I'm just going to cut the message so the post isn't so long.

I haven't read Attack and Defense in a long time so I can't say. I can just say that you can spend a few examples on concepts like urgent vs big, but that doesn't seem to mean you will completely understand it. I never feel like I do anyway. I always have questions and what ifs. I figure spending more time on each concept and the nuances of it along with more problems makes sense to try and master fundamental concepts. You can practice them by playing games, but then you don't necessarily know if you're always doing them right or perhaps they are rare concepts you never get to practice much. Those examples you learned and practiced might not show up except in the rare game as well. There may be other examples of sabaki or aji that you've never seen before for example. I don't know, maybe others can just take a look at a couple examples of a concept and begin applying it in creative ways they haven't learned, but I don't think I've ever been able to do that.

The only reason I would be against handicap games for a book like that is because in an even game the amateur gets to play josekis you would see in even games. The sides would also be open for normal play. This would be great for review purposes and analyzing amateur play and finding overall weaknesses. The professionals could point out whether they made a mistake with choosing a bad joseki based on the whole board, or whether or not they made an error and seeing how it plays out. With handicap games you lose that, and they typically always play the same as well when you get into the 6-9 stone range. Same sort of play in the corners. Same whole board fight where black tries to attack white's stones and white tries to make eyes then counter attack by cutting black's stones and killing something. The amateur also has the option of playing it safe by enclosing two corners while white approaches two corners. So it just makes sense to me to play even games in that situation.

About Ishi Press books: I've always kind of thought that the reason people in KGS don't fight as much and play it safe was due to the 30-40 year old books on the market. That's why I was thinking more updated books from Koreans and/or Chinese would be better, considering they are on top right now and never afraid to fight. But you go to WBaduk and Tygem, and the style is different. Even weak kyu players fight like crazy. Many have thousands of games, and they can sometimes be very accurate with reading, but they have no sort of strategic or fundamental knowledge on how to put it altogether.

[JoeS1]

About recent dan-level books, are you aware of Lee Sedol's commentaries, the 2 Shuko 'Only Move' books, Ma Xiaochun's 36 Stratagems, Relentless, John Fairbairn's Go Seigen series, Takao's new joseki dictionaries, Kim Sung Rae's 21st century opening series, Hinoki press? Some of those commentary books are not so much dan-only theory but I think dans can learn plenty from them but in a less spoon-fed 'here's the theory' way. For dan-level problem books they don't really need to be in English (though there are a few more like Yilun Yang's) and Asian ones like Lee Changho's series or classical collections do the job fine. As for a wish list of dan-level theory books, I'd like things like "The timing of 3-3 invasions". I've done sdk lectures on that topic; I'm sure one could write a fascinating 200-page dan-level book on the subject, but is there a market to make it worthwhile?

I'm not really dan level. I'd be about 2-3 Kyu KGS atm. I've just thought a lot about this subject and how I can improve, and why others seem to stall as well and never improve.

I'm aware of some of those books. When you refer to the Hinoki press books are you talking about The Heart of Go Disocvery series? I think I've read some reviews on it but don't think it was highly recommended at all. I don't know much about Takao's new Joseki Series. I'm not very knowledgeable about joseki. Don't think I'm familiar with Kim Sung Rae's 21st century opening series. What do you mean by Lee Changho's series, and classical collections? Are you just talking about reading and life and death problems?

If you guys have books to recommend that stand out and are superior to others in their subject or must reads for those close to shodan or slightly above it go ahead. I didn't expect a bunch of dan level players to respond to my post. So feel free to let me know what you recommend. I'll take a look and see if I can afford those books.

The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger.

I imagine that there are a lot of intermediate level books in English. You might check with daal, who has a library of some 70 go books. (See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 37#p211237 )

Yeah I don't want to fall into that trap. That's why I just want an intermediate and/or an advanced set of books that cover everything. I know there are like commentaries and classic books out there, but those seem something that can be hit or miss and something of a luxury you might want to get when dan level, but I don't know maybe a lot of commentary books on pro games is where to go at 1+ dan. I can understand his frustration with not knowing how to study it and absorb it all. Not to mention always buying books looking for that book that's going to shed some light on the game like the classic beginner books we all bought did.