Why do some people never reach shodan

[sparky314]

JoeS1

Have you considered doing an extensive review of a pro, such as was suggested by John Fairbairn earlier? I think you place a significant emphasis on books, and while the English literature on Go may be lacking, I don't think it's insufficient. Also, to the point of dan-level players, I don't see the same thing in the community - there are several very strong dan players who are focused on providing content that is easily accessible to the broader community. The surge in the past couple of years on YouTube for example. My personal experience with other players have been mostly positive, including having a few random reviews by Starstorm (which were incredible).

I think there's definitely a barrier to get to dan level, though my thought is that its mostly a time/effort thing for most people (myself included). I don't think additional high-level books will solve the problem, as you still need to spend time studying. There's no "quick-fix," just a slow, grueling grind (unless you happen to be one of those players where everything just clicks...).

[Bill Spight]

I'm not really dan level. I'd be about 2-3 Kyu KGS atm. I've just thought a lot about this subject and how I can improve, and why others seem to stall as well and never improve.

The books don't have to be dan level. They could be sort of intermediate level around 3-5 kyu KGS minimum and stronger.

I imagine that there are a lot of intermediate level books in English. You might check with daal, who has a library of some 70 go books. (See http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 37#p211237 )

Yeah I don't want to fall into that trap.

I wouldn't call it a trap. daal has learned a good bit of go knowledge and even plays creatively. He knows quite enough to make shodan, IMHO. Not everything is in books.

That's why I just want an intermediate and/or an advanced set of books that cover everything.

I was fortunate when I was around 4 kyu that both Takagawa and Sakata had published such sets. Sakata's whole set was still in print not too many years ago, which speaks to its quality. Some of the set was translated into English, Tesuji and Anti-suji of Go and Killer of Go. The other volumes address fuseki, joseki, and tsumego and yose. Sakata combines tsumego and yose in the same volume, which was traditional, I believe. That's not quite everything, but those topics offer a good foundation. And pro games have everything, OC.

[JoeS1]

JoeS1

Have you considered doing an extensive review of a pro, such as was suggested by John Fairbairn earlier? I think you place a significant emphasis on books, and while the English literature on Go may be lacking, I don't think it's insufficient. Also, to the point of dan-level players, I don't see the same thing in the community - there are several very strong dan players who are focused on providing content that is easily accessible to the broader community. The surge in the past couple of years on YouTube for example. My personal experience with other players have been mostly positive, including having a few random reviews by Starstorm (which were incredible).

I think there's definitely a barrier to get to dan level, though my thought is that its mostly a time/effort thing for most people (myself included). I don't think additional high-level books will solve the problem, as you still need to spend time studying. There's no "quick-fix," just a slow, grueling grind (unless you happen to be one of those players where everything just clicks...).

I replay pro games quite often on GoKifu. I've replayed so many pro games that I can pretty much follow the games and subconsciously know the direction the game is heading in and what pros are trying to do. Even the fusekis are somewhat similar in many pro games until they change it a bit, then many pros play the new fuseki movies. I just can't predict the moves exactly or far enough. My timing is also not always right. But even saying that, it doesn't seem to translate when playing amateurs. As they play weird moves that typically look bad to me. Or to my subconscious tells me they look bad, but I can't typically read how to punish them.

I wouldn't call it a trap. daal has learned a good bit of go knowledge and even plays creatively. He knows quite enough to make shodan, IMHO. Not everything is in books.

I just mean the trap of spending all that money and not improving at all. I'm very cheap and frugal. If I see one or two bad reviews, I'm very wary of purchasing something.

About the older Japanese books. I can't help thinking the reason the style on KGS is so passive and peaceful is because of studying those books and learning from them. The style on WBaduk and Tygem is so much different. More fighting, more punishing of bad moves or weak stones by attacking. I've just always thought the older Japanese style was a bit outdated and obsolete. That's why I was talking about more modern Korean or Chinese books that discuss new discoveries and approaches in Go. I think the Dictionary of Shape book which was about 400-500 pages if I remember right, was only 1 volume out of a set of something like 20 volumes. That's why I picked up that idea about books focusing on one or two concepts and delving deeply into it so you could master it. Because it seemed to make sense after reading that book.

[Bill Spight]

About the older Japanese books. I can't help thinking the reason the style on KGS is so passive and peaceful is because of studying those books and learning from them. The style on WBaduk and Tygem is so much different. More fighting, more punishing of bad moves or weak stones by attacking. I've just always thought the older Japanese style was a bit outdated and obsolete.

You have a good point there. However, Sakata was no proponent of a peaceful style. As you may imagine from a series called Killer of Go. That may be one reason that that series has lasted so well.

The placidity of Western go was a feature when I was learning go. True, Japanese pros in general had a relatively placid style. Go Seigen said, "Go is harmony." Takagawa felt that the best way to win was without fighting. (I like to win that way, too. It indicates that I understood the game better than my opponent, I think. ) However, most Japanese amateur dan players were scrappers. They mostly got strong by out-fighting their opponents, not by studying books. Western dan players did not usually have much competition. They typically got strong by studying books. The general opinion then seemed to be that bookishness lends itself to placid play, and I think that that is so.

[Shenoute]

I haven't read Attack and Defense in a long time so I can't say. I can just say that you can spend a few examples on concepts like urgent vs big, but that doesn't seem to mean you will completely understand it. I never feel like I do anyway. I always have questions and what ifs. I figure spending more time on each concept and the nuances of it along with more problems makes sense to try and master fundamental concepts. You can practice them by playing games, but then you don't necessarily know if you're always doing them right or perhaps they are rare concepts you never get to practice much. Those examples you learned and practiced might not show up except in the rare game as well. There may be other examples of sabaki or aji that you've never seen before for example. I don't know, maybe others can just take a look at a couple examples of a concept and begin applying it in creative ways they haven't learned, but I don't think I've ever been able to do that.

Yes I agree with that, that's why in my mind books are important but can only carry you so far. They can be a good introduction to a concept but practice is what is needed afterwards, and comments by a stronger player are key here. Still, there is quite a wealth of material (some of it free) ou there that repays close study.

(...) With handicap games you lose that, and they typically always play the same as well when you get into the 6-9 stone range. Same sort of play in the corners. Same whole board fight where black tries to attack white's stones and white tries to make eyes then counter attack by cutting black's stones and killing something. (...)

As for handicap games, I think I agree too Where we seem to differ is that it is precisely this repetitive aspect that makes them a great teaching tool. If the weaker player can't learn to attack properly in a position where possible moves are not so numerous, it would probably be harder to learn it in an even game where so many moves are available for thought.

About Ishi Press books: I've always kind of thought that the reason people in KGS don't fight as much and play it safe was due to the 30-40 year old books on the market. That's why I was thinking more updated books from Koreans and/or Chinese would be better, considering they are on top right now and never afraid to fight. But you go to WBaduk and Tygem, and the style is different. Even weak kyu players fight like crazy. Many have thousands of games, and they can sometimes be very accurate with reading, but they have no sort of strategic or fundamental knowledge on how to put it altogether.

Yes, Tygem can be quite a shock to people who think that playing calmly is the only way As for older books, I think it would still be a mistake to underestimate its value but yes, I can see your point about having more modern material. Incidentally, a friend of mine has been given the advice (by a Chinese pro) to replay games by Japanese top players from the 1980's/1990's because their style is easier to understand and learn from (at least that's how I understood the explanation).

[Knotwilg]

Yes, Tygem can be quite a shock to people who think that playing calmly is the only way

I've been playing on Tygem for quite some time now (33 games) and I've found it much softer than KGS. I have a 30-3 record on Tygem as a 3d, so probably am waiting for a 4-5d rank to materialize. I'm winning by either playing calmly or because my opponents chicken out of a fight. I can be quite a reckless fighter myself and I've never felt punished by opponents, not even by going into a fight we both don't know the outcome of and then being unlucky. Yesterday I lost my first game since long and it was purely because I hallucinated that one of my major groups was alive and had been playing accordingly.

On KGS on the other hand, I'm playing as a 1d and opponents are much less forgiving for overplays or meek plays. I find in general there is much more fighting on KGS than on tygem. Maybe I'm just meeting the wrong players or I will only encounter those legendary wild tygem fighters when I'm 5d.

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

[Shenoute]

I'm winning by either playing calmly or because my opponents chicken out of a fight.

Well, I dont' know, I find players on Tygem to be much more aggressive than players on KGS so I'm a bit surprised about the chickening out. But of course I agree with the play calmly strategy, only it is not always possible when the opponent invades every extension you make

And maybe your experience is also due to being underranked there.

[Bill Spight]

Yes, Tygem can be quite a shock to people who think that playing calmly is the only way

I'm winning by either playing calmly or because my opponents chicken out of a fight.

Well, I dont' know, I find players on Tygem to be much more aggressive than players on KGS so I'm a bit surprised about the chickening out. But of course I agree with the play calmly strategy, only it is not always possible when the opponent invades every extension you make

And maybe your experience is also due to being underranked there.

In the FWIW department, as a beginner I tried to kill everything in sight. But by the time I became 3 dan I had developed a thick, miai-ish style. My favorite opponents were the over aggressive ones, because all I had to do was wait for the overplay. My thickness made the subsequent fighting a bit easier for me than for my opponent.

[Shenoute]

In the FWIW department, as a beginner I tried to kill everything in sight. But by the time I became 3 dan I had developed a thick, miai-ish style. My favorite opponents were the over aggressive ones, because all I had to do was wait for the overplay. My thickness made the subsequent fighting a bit easier for me than for my opponent.

Sure, I do too . My comment about "people thinking that playing calmly is the only way" referred more to people that constantly label agressive moves as "overplays", think they deserve to win the game because they play a better fuseki ("like the pros you know") and that relying on fighting strength, reading power and messing things up in the middle game is kind of a lower sort of go. To that I generally reply that if both your opponent and yourself have the same, stable rank there's no reason he should lose more than half of the games, whatever his style or weaknesses.

[daal]

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

I know that spheres of influence are not territory, but I nonetheless always have a sinking feeling when they get invaded. The problem is that while I have been building my moyo, my opponent has been securing territory, so when he invades successfully, he has his territory and I often have squat.

[Krama]

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

I know that spheres of influence are not territory, but I nonetheless always have a sinking feeling when they get invaded. The problem is that while I have been building my moyo, my opponent has been securing territory, so when he invades successfully, he has his territory and I often have squat.

When opponent invades you can attack for profit and create territory or kill their groups. Or if you can't make territory you make walls which at some point are used ether to attack or to build territory.

[skydyr]

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

I know that spheres of influence are not territory, but I nonetheless always have a sinking feeling when they get invaded. The problem is that while I have been building my moyo, my opponent has been securing territory, so when he invades successfully, he has his territory and I often have squat.

If this is happening frequently and you're not able to get compensation, it's also possible that you are waiting too long to turn the moyo into territory.

[Knotwilg]

In this game review I'm trying to highlight differences in thinking between "kyus" and "dans", or rather "when I was considerably weaker than I am now" vs "the way I'm thinking now".

I'll use "kyus" and "dans" for the sake of brevity without any derogatory or self indulging purpose (well, maybe, a little bit )

In particular, there are certain forms of profit kyus don't "see".
I'll talk about what I consider to be spheres of influence and what is actually territory to my eyes.

[Bill Spight]

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

I know that spheres of influence are not territory, but I nonetheless always have a sinking feeling when they get invaded. The problem is that while I have been building my moyo, my opponent has been securing territory, so when he invades successfully, he has his territory and I often have squat.

Instead of that sinking feeling -- "You've lost that sinking feeling". Good song. -- you should feel elated. The whole point of building up moyo while your opponent plods along is to force him to invade. Otherwise, you would plod along, too. Once he invades, you have something to attack. Banzai!

OK, so you may lack confidence in your ability to attack. The remedy is simple. Attack! Attack! Attack!

De l'audace! Encore de l'audace! Toujours de l'audace!

BTW, "the whole point" was an overstatement, but you get that, I'm sure.

[Fedya]

Hypothesis: Western amateurs tend to prematurely think that spheres of influence are territory. Real territory cannot be contested but moyos can. So perhaps on KGS opponents "group think" about moyo being territory while on tygem they invade (and rightly so). I'm playing rather territorial style these days, influenced by dwyrin. Real territory cannot be invaded, so there's no wild fighting going on there.

I know that spheres of influence are not territory, but I nonetheless always have a sinking feeling when they get invaded. The problem is that while I have been building my moyo, my opponent has been securing territory, so when he invades successfully, he has his territory and I often have squat.

When opponent invades you can attack for profit and create territory or kill their groups. Or if you can't make territory you make walls which at some point are used ether to attack or to build territory.

You make it sound like a simple proposition. I'm with daal, in that when I get thickness in exchange for territory, it never seems to work for me at all.