Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . X . . O . . .
$$| . W O X X O X . .
$$| . . X O O X . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Joseki
$$-------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . X . 1 O 3 . .
$$| . O O X X O X . .
$$| . . X O O X 5 . .
$$| . . 2 . . 4 . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Resulting shape (joseki):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$-------------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . X . X O X . .
$$| . O O X X O X . .
$$| . . X O O X X . .
$$| . . O . . O . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Thanks for your replies.

I bought "Get Strong at the Endgame" and started to do the problems that one is supposed before and after reading the book. I am pretty sure that I get the best answers while playing around on the board, but I get them only because I *know* that the color I am playing is probably not supposed to lose by one point.

Also, I tried again to look at some pro games. They still don't make much sense, but I can tell that the first few moves might be helpful to try out some other fuseki. But in many games, they leave groups all over the place that look dead and dying which is obviously possible with good reading abilities, but not really something to emulate.

I submit that the problem was the original tenuki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$------------
$$|.........
$$|.....X...
$$|.3XX.X.O.
$$|.1OOO....
$$|.2....O..
$$|.a.......
$$|.........
$$|.........
$$|.........
$$|..O......[/go]

is not certain, but is very likely. Depending on the rest of the board, White might tenuki in this situation. The clamp at "a" is not nearly the threat that the jump to "a" was in the actual game.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Answer hidden for those who want to work it out for themselves.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

I have not yet thought about the score question because initially it didn't make sense to me. I have realized now that the question is what Black needs to do/have done when the corner is played.

Will think about it later.

Thanks for your explanation.

Now, for something new from a current game.

I needed ko threats against this corner (two would have been enough, actually):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X X . .
$$ | . . . . O O X . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

I played the following sequence of ko threats and answers (moves around the ko are omitted):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X X . .
$$ | 8 . 2 1 O O X . .
$$ | . . 6 3 7 5 . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

So, I think that I could do better. It seems that this works, but after that I don't see a third ko threat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X X . .
$$ | . 3 1 2 O O X . .
$$ | . . . . . 5 . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

Maybe starting from the outside:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . . . .
$$ | . O X X . . . . .
$$ | . O O O X X X . .
$$ | . . . . O O X . .
$$ | . 3 . 2 . 1 . . .
$$ ------------------[/go]

3 looks pretty scary without a response, but I find it hard to be sure that I checked all responses properly, much less finding the response that generates the least subsequent ko threats.

I have it on good authority now that the answer is 5 or 4, depending on whether the defender accepts seki. I will try to recover the sequences later.

I played low Chinese and got destroyed by the following move. In the meantime, I found responses without dying all over a quarter of the board by one liberty, but I have not found a response that I am really happy with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$...,...-
$$....X..-
$$.......-
$$.......-
$$.......-
$$...31..-
$$.4.,2..-
$$..5X...-
$$.......-
$$.......-
$$--------[/go]

I think that either 3 is already wrong or 7 should be above 5, but I can't say I like the result because I still need to fight for the life of the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$....,...-
$$.....X..-
$$........-
$$........-
$$........-
$$....OO..-
$$..X12X..-
$$754OX3..-
$$86......-
$$........-
$$---------[/go]

5 is almost certainly an overplay, particularly if he doesn't help his outside group first (this is of course assuming white does not have support on the lower side). That doesn't mean you can kill it, but as it squirms for life you should be able to get stronger and 1 and 3 wither and die. However, there is indeed some bad aji here that white might reasonably exploit later once the outside stones are safe. Something worth mentioning is black 4 can be played one point to the right as kosumi instead of knight's move if you need to be more solid.



3 is correct, the only move. If white captures the corner stone his 2 stones get a lot stronger and yours weaker. Ladder the outside stone and lose the corner is great for white, it's robbery not a trade! 7 is probably ok and the normal move, though it helps if you have the ladder if white cuts. You shouldn't collapse if you don't have the ladder, but if white can cut the fighting can get complex and not so miserable for white. If white didn't cut then the crawl of 8 above is possibly a mistake because black has a powerful descent of 3 below white threatens to take 2 stones and ruins white's shape*:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . . |
$$ . . 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . . 2 O . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

If white connects then black can extend and white has to crawl on the 2nd line for a long time to make life or have any hope of winning a semeai on the corner starting with a. Black's corner isn't alive yet though so you can't extend on the 3rd line forever and let white live in sente or he can play a, so you might need to tenuki eventually and hane (hanging) connect at b. This not only lives but creates a cut and further weakens white's 3 stones there, so if white then follows up on the lower side you can kill them.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O b . |
$$ , . . . X X O X a . |
$$ 7 5 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . 6 2 O 4 . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

White could sacrifice the cutting stones to get out, but black is probably happy to capture them and connect. White now has 2 weak groups. If black doesn't like this he shouldn't descend but extend again.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . . |
$$ . 4 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . . 2 O 5 . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

So if the white crawl is probably a mistake then what is better? "My opponent's key point is my key point" applies: hane to the corner. Black should block or else his 2 stones suffer and then white can crawl; white having, in sente, stopped black destroying his eye shape in sente with the descent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . . |
$$ . . 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . . 4 O . . 2 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Next black probably extends, and white can crawl again or save the stone, which makes/takes eyes for both. Black now needs to take care of his corner. Locally speaking the hanging connection of 9 is not alive yet whilst descent is ko, but white needs to fix the cut on the outside first before going to kill (it is quite annoying if white can fix in sente later). However the lower side white group isn't alive yet either and depending on the continuation black might get a or the hane in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . O O 7 . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . 9 |
$$ . 5 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . . 4 O . 6 2 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Probably white would then crawl on the lower side and black might extend or do something on the right.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . X |
$$ . X X X O O X X . . |
$$ . 1 O O . O O X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

If white did defend the cut and try to harass the corner then black could peep or5 turn (note how the hane of 4 in sente makes the corner alive):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . X |
$$ 6 X X X O O X X . . |
$$ . 3 O O 5 O O X 8 . |
$$ . . . . 2 . 4 7 . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . O . |
$$ . . . . . . O O X . |
$$ , . . . X X O X . X |
$$ . X X X O O X X . . |
$$ . 2 O O . O O X . . |
$$ . . 5 . 3 . 4 . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

* one key reason why white having the ladder helps is black's descent is no longer possible without extend one more time as white can get sente ataris before coming back to connect, or capture black in a ladder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B 7 is not fast enough now
$$ , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 5 . . . . . |
$$ . . . 4 3 . O O . . |
$$ , . 9 2 X X O X . . |
$$ . 8 1 X O O X X . . |
$$ . . 6 O . . 7 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------+[/go]

Edit 2018: Michael Redmond 9p talked in detail about this shape in this AlphaGo game review: https://youtu.be/3d00lk-U-ss?t=19m52s

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W Simple and strong
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . , . . 2 X X O X . . |
$$ . . . . . 1 O X X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ----------------------+[/go]

is simple and strong.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm3 Tesuji
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . , 4 8 X X X O X . . |
$$ . 5 3 2 7 O O X X . . |
$$ . . . 1 . 9 6 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 0 . . . . |
$$ ----------------------+[/go]

is tesuji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Threat
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ . , X X X X X O X . . |
$$ . O O X O O O X X . . |
$$ . . 5 O 1 O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 3 X . . . . |
$$ ----------------------+[/go]

connects

The first line descent carries a strong threat.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wm13 White is heavy
$$ . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . W W . . |
$$ . , X X X X X W X . . |
$$ . O O X O O O X X . . |
$$ . . . O . O X 1 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ ----------------------+[/go]

prevents Black's threat with sente, but at the cost of letting Black secure the corner. White has sente, but now the stones are heavy.

There are more complicated fights, OC, but this is an easy way for Black to gain an advantage.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Thank you for your replies. I have to study the variations before I comment on them.

Just for information: This was at the beginning of the game, so there was just the low Chinese and two white 4-4 stones on the board.

I am posting my game of this evening. In many ways, this is one of my best recent games, but I made very bad mistakes that I shouldn't have. I neglected a group, but my opponent let me get two eyes anyway, neglected the next group and blundered, but my opponent let me get seki anyway, and then I let a group get disconnected during endgame.

I still like this game a lot because it had a bit of everything: Ordinary life and death, seki, ko, ignored joseki follow-ups and shoulder hits, and moyo reduction.



After some consideration, I think that I should have played move 201 at O3. Maybe it isn't my intuition that is the problem.

I would be grateful for any comments, both at the game and my comments on the game.

Hi Gotrask,

Because allows W a comfortable miai to extend either way, W can tenuki and take a big point ( e.g. C10 direction ).

You took it first, nice.

Very solid, but maybe a bit slow.
Approach (P4, etc. ) is a possibility.

Not small, but maybe approach bigger ( P4, etc. ).

Did you feel this is a bit overplay ?
You already reinforced with and blocked with --
W is not in a position to "counter attack" like this...

...Hmmm, this feels... B has the stronger position here than W.
Why are you backing up ?
I may consider the push-and-cut. ( J16 + K15 )

OK ( and big ) to reply to .

Maybe replying to bigger.
( , , light )

Right -- if you noticed the sequence not very useful,
just reply to .

Soft. W ignored your approach, so double approach W ( F3 or F4, etc.)

W got a joseki result here because was soft.

You can fix your weakness there in sente, say with G3-H4 exchange, at a local loss.

Your variation: big miss for B ; important to study: find the correct sequence for B.

Before you live, turn first at F4. Live at the last moment.

You missed this very big turn.

R6 is a possible starting point.

How about P11 ?

I think that 17 would be more interesting one space to the right. Now Black decides how to proceed against the shoulder hit.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X . O 6 2 O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 7 3 4 1 . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . 5 8 0 . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that White cannot resist as below. Black can can cut on either side with 6.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 6 3 8 0 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X 5 O 2 O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . 1 X 4 X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In the game, the connection at 23 is too close to the strong stones on the right and accomplishes essentially nothing. Black has to connect on the other side as below. White 2 seems natural and something like the diagram is what we might expect.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . X 2 O O O O . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , X O X . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . O . 1 X . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 . 4 . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

_________________
Dave Sigaty
"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

As a contribution to the question what a beginner is, I will post some of my first games.

I read the tutorial on ogs, played two games against random bot and then I played this game (as Black, Wulfenia):



90 minutes later I won my first game (as Black, Wulfenia):

I played a (slow correspondence) game as Black against an opponent who started with a mirror phase. I really, really hate it because I think that it really changes the game (just like a couple of handicap stones or a sunjang baduk opening) and it takes away the normal opening and I felt that my time has been stolen by forcing me to play a game I did not want to play. What happened in the game is that we mapped out a moyo, I eventually took tengen and I lost by 7.5 points.

I would appreciate any advice, both on the game and on the general situation of mirror games.



While I am posting here, I want to add a typical won game of mine for reference. I think that it tells more clearly than some of my lost games why I lose games. This was a quick 10min + 5x30sec game.

Also, I introduced two children to go this Christmas. I just showed them on my tablet how you take stones off and told them that the goal was to put as many stones as possible while not being eaten. Since they played on my tablet, they simply could not do illegal moves and they did not play any ko. The younger one won and now likes the game.

It was easy to get them interested, I just played some games on ogs myself during the Christmas visit and only reluctantly agreed to show them the game.

Some comments on the mirror game:

The mirror game is very interesting! I can understand why you hate it, but it's actually a great lesson in respecting your opponent's moves, thinking about them and playing yours with a plan accordingly. Mirror as white means if you split the board in half, which is pretty much what happened here, then white wins thanks to the komi. So you can't just ignore your opponent's moves and merrily play your own. Tengen breaking the was mirror was quite possibly the losing move, though there was probably a better way before. What you need to try to do is make it so that either there is some tactical sequence in which he collapses if he continues to mirror (but are also good moves which you are happy to play if he stops mirroring at and time) usually involving some kind of atari or ladder meeting near tengen and you being a liberty ahead, or make it so that when you do play tengen it is worth more than komi because it closes a bunch of territory for you but not him. I'll try to find some ways to do this later, but see if you can on your own first. For ideas here's a rotational rather than reflected mirror game with comments I played some time ago where I managed to make the breaking of symmetry greater than komi's value.