Iyama Yuta did it!

[Uberdude]

Takao won the final game by 2.5 points so Iyama loses the 7 crowns. Iyama played what seemed like overly slow in the opening to me (see http://eidogo.com/#2N2TOY9xD), allowing Takao to build a large moyo on the left. There was some exciting ko and trades and moyos, but Takao managed the situation well and it felt like a pretty comfortable win for him in the end despite Iyama's best efforts at making a mess.

[by78]

Takao won the final game by 2.5 points so Iyama loses the 7 crowns. Iyama played what seemed like overly slow in the opening to me (see http://eidogo.com/#2N2TOY9xD), allowing Takao to build a large moyo on the left. There was some exciting ko and trades and moyos, but Takao managed the situation well and it felt like a pretty comfortable win for him in the end despite Iyama's best efforts at making a mess.

Ahem, no way Iyama is in the world top 10. Just no way.

[Uberdude]

Just like there's no way Lee Sedol is in the top 10 because he lost to Ichiriki Ryo?

[by78]

Just like there's no way Lee Sedol is in the top 10 because he lost to Ichiriki Ryo?

Did Lee lose to Ichiriki in a seven game match?

[Drew]

@Uberdude, would you agree that the ko offered by Iyama in the upper left early on, which Takao simply steamrolled right through, put Iyama behind for the rest of the game? It seemed he slowly dug himself out of that hole, especially in the very end, but it was an awfully deep hole!

[Uberdude]

Just like there's no way Lee Sedol is in the top 10 because he lost to Ichiriki Ryo?

Did Lee lose to Ichiriki in a seven game match?

No. But top Korean and Chinese pros have never beaten Takao in a seven game match with 8 hours each either. So whilst they are considerable favourites in the shorter international matches, I could well believe Takao might do somewhat better against them in such a format. It's worth pointing out that Gu Li was reluctant to the 4 hour time limits of his jubango against Lee Sedol because he saw it as a disadvantage.

[by78]

Just like there's no way Lee Sedol is in the top 10 because he lost to Ichiriki Ryo?

Did Lee lose to Ichiriki in a seven game match?

No. But top Korean and Chinese pros have never beaten Takao in a seven game match with 8 hours each either. So whilst they are considerable favourites in the shorter international matches, I could well believe Takao might do somewhat better against them in such a format. It's worth pointing out that Gu Li was reluctant to the 4 hour time limits of his jubango against Lee Sedol because he saw it as a disadvantage.

I see, logic is not your strong suit.

[mitsun]

by78, your logic seems to be:
1) Iyama lost to Takao in a long match
2) Therefore Iyama cannot be among the world top 10

Is this really a persuasive logical argument?
Maybe logic is not your strong suit.

[kimidori]

While I agree Iyama might not be in top 10 at the moment (I don't like his fuseki in all the 7 games in this Meijin final), it definitely doesn't mean that he never has the potential to hold a top-10 position.

For example, I can also say that the moment he beat Park Junghwan and Mi Yuting (both games are like 1-side games to me), he was definitely in top 5, if not top 3.

Disclaimer: I just try to use the same logic as by78, I don't really believe Iyama has ever been in top-3.

[Uberdude]

@Uberdude, would you agree that the ko offered by Iyama in the upper left early on, which Takao simply steamrolled right through, put Iyama behind for the rest of the game? It seemed he slowly dug himself out of that hole, especially in the very end, but it was an awfully deep hole!

I thought Iyama was behind from even earlier, when he spent 2 moves to capture the 3 stones at the top right. If you look at other pro games with that opening (with white double 4-4s is most simular but maybe they don't have p4 peep or with some 3-4 does make quite a difference) black doesn't play there before making a presence on the left half of the board. Judging the ko trade was harder as 1) even if Takao answered the threat and then connected Iyama's result there wasn't amazing, 2) Maybe some other choices in the threat fight, 3) hard to judge the result where Iyama netted the 3 stones but seemed not bad for Takao.

[by78]

by78, your logic seems to be:
1) Iyama lost to Takao in a long match
2) Therefore Iyama cannot be among the world top 10

Is this really a persuasive logical argument?
Maybe logic is not your strong suit.

Seems perfectly persuasive to me. What do you reckon Takao's world ranking is?

[pookpooi]

Well, there are two alternative world rankings, Dr. Park Tiel rank that successfully push Iyama Yuta out of top20 and Mamumamu rank that happily push him out of top30.
While GoRatings's claim its better prediction accuracy might differ from your opinion, you've to give the clarity score to it since it's the only one that publish its paper in English language.

[by78]

Well, there are two alternative world rankings, Dr. Park Tiel rank that successfully push Iyama Yuta out of top20 and Mamumamu rank that happily push him out of top30.
While GoRatings's claim its better prediction accuracy might differ from your opinion, you've to give the clarity score to it since it's the only one that publish its paper in English language.

I suppose Korean and Japanese rankings are less legitimate because they are foreign. Goratings.org is better because it's in English and sources its games from Go4Go, which is also more legitimate due to it being an English language website, even though its collection of games is incomplete, unlike its Korean and Japanese counterparts that have access to more games.

Silly me... Maybe I shouldn't have applied Aristotelian logic to point out the ridiculousness of Iyama's ranking at Goratings.org because Greek logic is no good.

[by78]

Just like there's no way Lee Sedol is in the top 10 because he lost to Ichiriki Ryo?

Did Lee lose to Ichiriki in a seven game match?

No. But top Korean and Chinese pros have never beaten Takao in a seven game match with 8 hours each either. So whilst they are considerable favourites in the shorter international matches, I could well believe Takao might do somewhat better against them in such a format. It's worth pointing out that Gu Li was reluctant to the 4 hour time limits of his jubango against Lee Sedol because he saw it as a disadvantage.

Ahhh, the time limit excuse again...

I really do miss the 1980s and early 90s, before the time limit excuse was invented and when the Japanese super-9-Dans (Cho, Kobayashi, Takemiya, Kato, et al.) were sweeping all before them internationally.

Or are my memories faulty? Did Japan have shorter time controls 25-30 years ago?

[Ember]

I'm so sick if this Iyama Yuta rating discussion crap in this thread. This is a thread for people who who are interested in tracking Iyama Yuta's achievements because for them he plays a good and or interesting game and because the people want to talk about that. If he is in first or last place in any stupid ranking is totally off topic (and as a fan I don't care one bit about this). If you think he is crap, by78, just don't come here and try to impact your world view on others, it should be obvious by now that not everyone shares your opinion and you made your point quite clear - although not understandable but if that's your way of thinking: fine.
I'd very much prefer to go back to discussing the games and other stuff related to Iyama Yuta here in this thread, there are other threads for discussing ratings and the players they list in whichever order. Or open a new thread discussing the very specific topic of Iyama Yuta in the world rankings. That's all I have to say about this subject and continuing to troll won't change that. *finishes rant*

To contribute something productive and on topic:
I'm sad he wasn't able to win yesterday after this fantastic comeback in the match. But that's how it goes. I have a feeling he'll be there next year, too. By the way: Thanks for summing the game and your impressions of it up, Uberdude! I think it's always very interesting to read your short thoughts on the games, especially when I have as little time as now to go over the game myself thoroughly.