EGC 2017

[Uberdude]

Non-European question: when was it awarded to Turkey? Why? And what has changed in Turkey between then and now?

I don't follow Turkish news closely, but any security/HR concerns ... hasn't Turkey's situation been relatively consistent the past few years?

EGCs are usually awarded at least 3 years in advance, the Sensei's Library update to list Turkey was "June 15, 2014 - 16:27 [betterlife]" so at least before then (betterlife is Lorenz Trippel EGF secretary). I don't know their reasons, but Turkey has a growing Go community and it's nice to spread Go so seemed a fine choice to me. Since then Erdogan (Prime Minister now President) has become more autocratic, there was an attempted coup in July 2016 which was foiled and led to further crackdown on political dissent, journalists, university lecturers, civil servants etc. There have been numerous bombings and the civil war in neighbouring Syria means the UK's Foreign Office advises against all travel to the border area as that's basically a warzone (the proposed location was in the centre).

[HermanHiddema]

Abuse of referees as object for getting changes to treaties with the EU.

Well I definitely wouldn't want to be one of the referees at the congress then!

[RobertJasiek]

Refugees, sorry for the typo.

[Javaness2]

There is an interesting (rhetorical) point made as to whether the vote is against the constitution not.

Article 20 says that if there are no bids, the Board can decide on the location instead of the AGM.
But there is also

3.4.2 The Executive Committee shall decide on all matters not otherwise reserved to another body of the EGF. In an emergency situation, the Executive Committee may, by a two-thirds majority of votes cast, pass resolutions, which are normally the prerogatives of the General Meeting, unless such decision is expressly excluded in these bylaws or in the regulations of the EGF.

Here there were effectively 2 bids. Was a 3-4 decision enough? Or should the board be only covered by article 20? In other words, by accepting a bid from Germany, did the board create a constitutional question?

[RobertJasiek]

Another topic not discussed so far: There is the European Go Center in Amstelveen (near Amsterdam). Why could the Netherlands not offer themselves as another venue? The center may be too small to host all players of the main tournament simultaneously but surely part of the players could play in a different hall in Amstelveen or southern Amsterdam.

[daal]

Seems there is some movement on the issue:. http://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=91

[Drew]

So they're going to reconsider their reconsidering?

[RobertJasiek]

This gives the EGF member countries the possibility to better consider all aspects. Hopefully the time until the new "voting" is used well and the delay still enables a good congress.

Among the aspects insufficiently considered so far are:

1) Tournament organisation quality (if all countries cooperate, the quality might be similar in different countries).

2) Travel expenses for the average European using the default hotel (cheaper accommodation will also be available): Germany permits cheaper travel tickets, Russia permits cheaper hotel, visa costs differ for players from different countries. So on average, travel expenses of an individually travelling player might be similar. Except for groups, for whom travel by car is hardly any option in the case of Russia.

3) Time investment during travel: Germany incurs a bit delay because of 3.5h train travel from a typical international airport. Russia incurs delay because a safe flight connection requires some hours of waiting when changing planes at, say, Moscow or Vienna. So time investment during travel will be similar.

4) Time investment for visa: For players from several countries, up to 15 days of actual work must be invested to get a visa for Russia. For Russians, up to 15 days of actual work must be invested to get a visa for Germany (or another EU country). Clearly, players from more countries have much less (often no) time investment for getting a visa for Germany.

5) Same country twice in a row: this can be excused due to the emergency.

6) Tourist attraction: this is a side aspect. Both venues offer good tourist possibilities. I do not buy it that Sochi would offer sea and mountains. Either the hotel will be close to the sea or close to the mountains. For two Wednesdays, the other tourist aspects can be visited, but the same can be said for Germany: On Wednesdays, far excursions are also possible.

Apart from preferring Germany as a German, I see mainly one major difference: the time investment for visa. Russia means I would need to waste up to 15 days of my life just for getting the visa. I prefer a country for that I do not have to waste much time for a piece of paper.

[tj86430]

up to 15 days of actual work

What does this mean? Is "days of actual work" = calendar time or work time (only the first makes sense to me)?

[John Fairbairn]

Russia means I would need to waste up to 15 days of my life just for getting the visa.

I'm curious how you can spend that long. I can understand you may need to wait a fortnight between applying and receiving but that's not a waste. I understand also that queueing can be a nuisance, but 15 days????? In any event you can pay someone to queue for you, and even if you stand in the queue yourself you can use the time to read, watch or listen to something.

It's not an authoritarian regime thing. The greatest inconveniences I have ever found in getting visas were for the USA with queues to find out which queue you are supposed to be in, and the biggest queues outside embassies I see in London are outside the Indian Embassy (none outside the Turkish one), but I was impressed by a recent rather long snake outside the Zambian one. But nowhere have I seen people embassy-camping for 1 day let alone 15 days.

[Nyanjilla]

But nowhere have I seen people embassy-camping for 1 day let alone 15 days.

I've done it, but for two separate days, though. (Applying for a work permit while in Japan, when the system was to apply outside the country, then come back a couple of months later to pick up the permit. The Japanese visa section in Seoul got very crowded so there were day-long queues. And the airlines loved it. But I got to see Seoul and surroundings in the snow in the extra days I'd allowed just in case it was a more-than-day-long queue (including watching outdoor games of go).)

[RobertJasiek]

15 days of work (say 7 to 10 hours per day, then rest 5 hours) are easily accumulated for:

- 2 days for finding out whether the passport number contains a 0 or O (the font absolutely gives no hint whatsoever, so I had to visit a local German office for asking and learning that in German passports O does not exist) and reminding each involved person about the correct spelling several times and getting corrections of documents with corrected spelling,
- 2 days for confirmation of health insurance,
- 4+ days for reading embassy documents and finding out which things I would need to show,
- 3 days for filling out documents and fighting with buggy consular wegpages,
- ca. 3 days for visting embassy-related offices (they were kind to me but I have heard of others who actually needed to show all the detailed documents and spend more days at the office; in my case, it was almost sufficient to demonstrate a heap of papers with which I possibly could have proven the details),
- 3 days for digging out documents and information (such as proof of income, what is like a tax declaration including all individual receipts if you are a freelancer), photocopying and sorting everything.

Plus waiting ca. 7 weeks for several documents to arrive and free embassy-related dates becoming available. Not counting the time for congress registration, travel information, hotel registration and purchase of travel tickets.

[John Fairbairn]

I looked up the procedure for the UK and it is certainly highly bureaucratic, but the procedure has been outsourced to a private company (common now with visas everywhere) and it seems that collecting the documents takes about an hour, you fill in the forms (looks tedious, I admit), then you wait five days for delivery. I see nothing about tax affairs or other arcana. Given the vast number of passports that exist with an o, it seems odd that no-one else seems to have raised this as a major 2-day issue. Were you also trying to avoid paying the small fee for a letter of support, or something like that, where most tourists just go with the flow (safely and happily by all accounts)?

But basically you are right about the hassle, and I must admit the costs look horrendous, and would be a very big hurdle for family groups.

When I was a student in Moscow, many problems could be eased with things like a Beatles LP. I presume it's very different now, and I have often been tempted to go back and see. But looking up the visa information just now has made me dump that idea.

[RobertJasiek]

No, I did not try to save a few bucks.

Figuring out the 0 spelling and ensuring correct spelling of my name in the invitation were necessary because, as expected, these were the two most carefully checked dates. They are essential for identifying the correct person.

[tj86430]

15 days of work (say 7 to 10 hours per day, then rest 5 hours) are easily accumulated for:

- 2 days for finding out whether the passport number contains a 0 or O (the font absolutely gives no hint whatsoever, so I had to visit a local German office for asking and learning that in German passports O does not exist) and reminding each involved person about the correct spelling several times and getting corrections of documents with corrected spelling,
- 2 days for confirmation of health insurance,
- 4+ days for reading embassy documents and finding out which things I would need to show,
- 3 days for filling out documents and fighting with buggy consular wegpages,
- ca. 3 days for visting embassy-related offices (they were kind to me but I have heard of others who actually needed to show all the detailed documents and spend more days at the office; in my case, it was almost sufficient to demonstrate a heap of papers with which I possibly could have proven the details),
- 3 days for digging out documents and information (such as proof of income, what is like a tax declaration including all individual receipts if you are a freelancer), photocopying and sorting everything.

Plus waiting ca. 7 weeks for several documents to arrive and free embassy-related dates becoming available. Not counting the time for congress registration, travel information, hotel registration and purchase of travel tickets.

Lots and lots of Finns who live near the Russian border regularly visit Russia just to buy cheap petroleum. I doubt they would repeatedly renew their Visa if it took even tenth of that time (1,5 days).