Human Progress

[Ulquiorra]

What is the premise of the question?

The strength of the players during their first game against modern pros? Or after some adaptation period?

Isn't it conceivable that some of the "bad joseki" of early games would trick a modern pro during this first game because those moves have been discarded so completely that their refutation has been forgotten?

The match happens right after they arrive at the present.
I don't think pros would be tricked by subpar moves, corner jouseki covers most possible aproaches.

[Uberdude]

I don't think pros would be tricked by subpar moves, corner jouseki covers most possible aproaches.

Ke Jie got game-over level tricked in a the large avalanche by Qiu Jun in the 2nd Bailing Cup final (http://www.go4go.net/go/games/sgfview/45289).

[Bill Spight]

Anybody who thinks that the endgame is just math isn't fighting hard enough in the endgame.

Bill, you've mentioned this before, and I was wondering if you might elaborate. It's slightly off-topic from the current thread, so I don't know if you want to answer here or not.

From your posts on endgame, my impression is that you have a good handle on getting value of plays, tedomari, sente, reverse sente, and these sorts of concepts. If you can calculate the value of all the plays, have a clear idea of what is sente, reverse sente, gote, when it's important to get the last play, and so on... What's left to fighting spirit?

Does all of this study not give you a clear path to the end of the game when you're given an endgame board position?

No. Nearly all of my endgame problems or studies are about the late endgame. It is true that Berlekamp and his students composed late endgame problems that challenged top pros. Berlekamp once signed up for a lesson at the Nihon Kiin with a 9 dan, and set up a problem to see if he had made a mistake that the 9 dan could show him. After failing to solve the problem by playing it out a few times against Berlekamp (who was something like 4 kyu at the time), the pro waived his fee and said, why don't you teach me? Nonetheless, late game endgame mistakes in pro games are rare. At least they were when they got at least 5 hours plus byoyomi. However, even top level players make mid-level endgame mistakes, usually costing a point or two.

Several years ago I helped out at a professional endgame tournament in Seoul. The endgames were set up, starting in the mid-level endgame. The results were surprisingly varied. At one point the pros were laughing and Rui Naiwei had a grin on her face. She had killed one of her opponent's groups. Now, that's fighting spirit.

As for my problems, they are mostly about the concepts you mentioned and are thus mathy. But a lot of players think that endgame math is just about the size of plays. It is not, as you know. And there is a kind of fighting spirit to it, I think. The fight to get the last play or the fight to take sente apply at all levels of the game.

Here is an example of the wrong book play from The Magic of Go articles in the Yomiuri Shimbun. See http://senseis.xmp.net/?YoseErrorsInMagicOfGo .

$$B Issue 160 Problem 2
$$ ----------------
$$ . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ . X X O 2 . O . |
$$ . . X O O X O . |
$$ . . X X X O O O |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Issue 160 Problem 2
$$ ----------------
$$ . . O . 1 . . . |
$$ . X X O 2 . O . |
$$ . . X O O X O . |
$$ . . X X X O O O |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

This is a mid-level endgame position. is tesuji, showing good fighting spirit. However, is gote.

$$B Issue 160 Problem 2
$$ ----------------
$$ . . O 3 1 . . . |
$$ . X X O . 2 O . |
$$ . . X O O X O . |
$$ . . X X X O O O |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$B Issue 160 Problem 2
$$ ----------------
$$ . . O 3 1 . . . |
$$ . X X O . 2 O . |
$$ . . X O O X O . |
$$ . . X X X O O O |
$$ . . . . . X X X |
$$ . . . . . . . . |[/go]

takes sente. That's fighting spirit, too. It takes fighting strength to find the tesuji, , and it takes fighting strength to find . is deceptive, because it gives up 3 points locally. However, when is played, there will almost certainly be opportunities to gain more than 3 points elsewhere on the board. Described in those terms it is a mathy decision, but normally the decision is obvious, once you see

Anyway, my problems are seldom about tesuji and fighting strength, but are about concepts that any dan player and many kyu players can use to play the late endgame almost perfectly.

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Edit: Back when I was 3 dan, before I had studied about tedomari and so on, a go magazine ran a series with early endgame positions taken from pro games to play out with an opponent and then compare your results with that of the pros, who presumably played correctly. A local shodan and I played the positions out and I always scored around 10 points better than the pro results. It was as though I had a large gote and then the rest was miai. I basically got all the points that were up for grabs. It takes fighting strength to do that. Math is not enough.