What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:28 pm

New Year's Eve game.

He ignored your cap; did you consider to follow up locally.

Had

been instead a shoulder hit, say L4, and he ignored it, would you have followed up with it.

Your notes here. You were aware of the local follow-ups to

,
but maybe waited too long.

Seems heavy.

Did you have any follow-up to

.
What does B do if you peep at G4 ?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 4:29 pm

I am going to make some comments, but let me say again, bravo! Keep stretching yourself and you will grow.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:43 pm

Go to move 162.

Edit: Made a better variation.

Same result, though.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:51 pm

I'd like to comment on the fight on the right side. In your notes you commented that something started to go wrong when Black split your top stones from the right side. This is correct. The crucial point came at

. White and Black had just exchanged

through

below. The question comes up how should White continue here? Obviously White needs to do something about the cutting points, but what? This involves making judgments about the relative value of

,

, and the marked stone (ignoring

as a sacrifice stone, at least for now). In addition, we should consider White's larger term goals. In the game White connected at

. Let's make sure that we understand what this means. By connecting at 8, White is putting priority on the right side, specifically the edge. Now if Black plays "b" there is no threat and no need to answer. Can this possibly the most important point on the board right now or is this just a mistake on White's part? Black continues with

and White has nothing better than

, leading to the center stones being cut off. White 8 was a mistake in direction.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc What is Important? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . X . . . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . X O O . O . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . 9 2 . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 1 W 8 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 3 6 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 b . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So what happens if White connects at 1 below? Here White values the Q11 stone more highly than the S9 stone. This is far more appropriate than the actual game continuation. If Black tries to push now, White can hane at 3. Black can try pushing from behind but White can resist here with 7. After Black cuts with 8, White can simply play the diagonal move at 9, aiming at both an attack on the marked Black stones with "a" and the cutting point at "b" (note that value of the marked stone). Black can not protect against both threats.

White can even go along with Black and continue with 7 at 8. Black keeps pushing White from behind and can cut White off from the center but only by letting White into the upper right corner.

Clearly the second diagram would have been better for White than the game continuation. White has grasped the idea that the center is more important than the side at this point in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . B . . . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . B O O . O . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . B B . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . O 7 8 X O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . a . 9 . 6 5 . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . b 2 O 1 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A little while later you played

below and thought it a very good move. It was. However, when Black answered with

you had to realize that the purpose of the original move was fully realized. You had destroyed Black's eye shape here in sente. The follow-up play had to be in the center. White plays something like

below in order to get full value from

. If Black jumps out with

, White continues in the center with

. White starts to link up the upper and lower side stones while harassing Black. In the game, White "forces" Black to isolate both White's upper side stones and the lower side stones. This was another mistake in direction.

Note that if Black plays "a" at any time, White can answer with "b".

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . X X O . . O X X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . b . X O O . O . , X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . 1 2 X X . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . a . . . . O . . X O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . 4 . 3 . O X . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . X . O . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . 5 . . . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . O . O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , O . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:51 am

Important lessons from Dave (ez4u).

A few more comments.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:36 pm

Wow. A lot to go through.

Apologies for not responding earlier, but I was busy with other stuff yesterday evening, and then having to get up at 4:30 AM for work plays havoc with my schedule.

First, for Ed. When Black played the tenuki on

, I naturally figured I didn't need to spend another move there until he responded. I guess it's a question of whether I want to make the exchange of putting pressure on him on the bottom for letting him put pressure on that stone in the top left. Unless there's a sequence on the bottom that's sente for White. My understanding of reductions like the capping move isn't good enough yet to find such a sequence.

When I played

, I figured perhaps Black would hane at L4, after which I'd respond with K4 -- the ladder is in my favor, so that and J3 putting pressure on the left would be miai. Of course, Black didn't play that way, so I had to figure out what to do next. I looked through Attack and Defense again, and the impression I get is that pulling back like I did is acceptable. After

, though, I didn't have much idea what to do with the group. All I could see was something floating, and where would it get eyes? (That's the problem I have with the capping move in general, trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do with it if it's not going to get an eye on the side, and why I've tended to overplay with invasions in general.)

Bill:

I haven't looked through the second review you posted, although your comments on move 162 are enlightening. That's the sort of thing I'd have to spend a long time trying to find if I were playing on one of the turn-based servers. Obviously, I need to keep working on my reading! (Don't we all.)

Dave's comments on

might be even more enlightening. I've said quite a few times in the past, and this game seems to be a good example of it, that I have a tendency to play sequences that as best I can tell seem like a good idea, only to look at the board 20 moves later and find that I didn't get as much profit as I would have liked, and where on earth did I go wrong not to get that profit? This is an instructive example of just where I went wrong. And then with the eye-stealing tesuji I obviously followed up both from the wrong side and too slowly. I took me too long to see that the top right group might be in any danger. Not the first time I've brought that concept up, either.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:24 pm

Fedya wrote:Bill:

I haven't looked through the second review you posted, although your comments on move 162 are enlightening. That's the sort of thing I'd have to spend a long time trying to find if I were playing on one of the turn-based servers. Obviously, I need to keep working on my reading! (Don't we all.)

Please note that I did not start with reading, but with seeing. That is, with seeing a living 4 point eye for Black. To see that, all you have to do is connect the dots.

Then the reading is directed at the question of how to prevent that.

Also, if my reading is correct, when White tries to kill and allows his corner stones to be cut off, Black should not block on the first line and make a big eye, because White could force Black to take the hane stone and make a ko. Black does better to make the small eye, because in the eye vs. no eye contest, that gives him more shared liberties. Hey! That should be a proverb.

Dave's comments on might be even more enlightening.

Indeed.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:10 pm

Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot.

The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.

skydyr · Post by **skydyr** » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:34 pm

Fedya wrote:Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot. The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.

Well, black established a zone there early on and it was strengthened by subsequent play. It is to be expected that this turn into territory by the time white pulled the stone out. Being able to live there was good, since it meant that black just had a big corner instead of a quarter of the board, and should be viewed as a local success. Certainly by move 100 or so, there was no killer sequence to make it all go away that I can tell. Part of the consequence of living in the center was that it became territory. Had you done something in the corner, even assuming it worked it's likely the center would have become black territory. So it goes.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Fedya wrote:Looking at Bill's review, it looks like I missed a lot.

No shame, there. When you become 5 kyu you'll still miss a lot.

SDKs miss a lot. I miss a lot.

To my eyes your play in this game looked a lot like what I would call go.

You are not used to attacking, and so you have a lot to learn in that department. But it is there for you to learn, and you can learn it. You have a lot to learn that players no better than you have learned, because they have a different style. When you do learn it, and learn to apply it, you will be a stronger player, perhaps by more than a stone or two.

The other interesting thing is that I was analyzing the game, I spent a lot of time thinking about the lower right since I felt like I gave up a lot of territory there. Yet nobody else commented on it, as though perhaps it wasn't as important as I thought.

Well, in a way you already made the decision not to play (at least right away) in the bottom right, with your choices of

and

. But because of those choices you have the attack against the Black group on the side starting with the peep. And after that, with a weak Black group and a strong White group, you will probably be able to go into the bottom right corner. If you go in prematurely, you might end up with Black attacking two White groups.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jan 17, 2017 9:16 pm

One other point about the end of the game. Ultimately we always need to be able to read well enough to justify our earlier plays. At 132 you set out to make eyes for your top-side group. After the hane at

below (134 in the game) Black peeped at

and descended at

. Now we have to read carefully. It is absolutely necessary for White to play

below. White is alive. Internally the two points "a" and "b" are miai. Black can not prevent White from making two eyes.

In the game, Black should not have played 143, it was needlessly complex. Instead Black should simply cut at L17. This captures the three White stones in a snap back. So White must play

in the diagram to prevent Black's diagonal play at L19. If Black gets to play there, it is all over. Black should really have played L19 instead of answering White's P18. White can not make two eyes in the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O X . X . 4 O 5 2 3 1 . . . . . | $$ | . X X O . . . X X O . a O X X X . . . | $$ | . . . , . O . . . X O O . O O , X . . | $$ | . . X X O . . O X X X . O X . X . X . | $$ | . . X O . O . O . . . . O X . X O . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . . . . O X . . O . . | $$ | . . X O . . . O . X . . . X . O . O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . X . . X O . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O . X . . . . X X O O . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . O . X X O X O . | $$ | . X X X O X . . . X X O . O O O X . . | $$ | . . O X O O . X . . O X O . O O X . . | $$ | . . O X X O O . . O . X X O . O X . . | $$ | . O . O X X . O . O . . X O O X X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O . , O . . X X , . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . X X O . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:27 pm

So I played another interesting game over the weekend. Once again, I tried something different to keep my opponent from turning his moyo into a ton of territory. What happened this time, however, is that when I played on the sides, my opponent simply wound up getting a bunch of territory in between my two invasions. It's like those old cartoons when there's a lump under the carpet: you press down on the lump, and it simply moves somewhere else. I didn't see the territory developing until it was pretty much too late to do anything about it. Meanwhile, once again my opponent has no difficulty severely reducing my moyo. I look and look and look and just don't see what it is about my opponents' moyos that no matter what I try there seems to be no place to play to prevent them from getting a ton of territory, while I rarely get much out of my moyos.

That having been said, I think I did spot some concrete problems with my play in this game. First, I never really made an attempt to get my group on the right side out into the center, and that's part of why Black got a the nice moyo extending from the bottom right corner well into the center of the board. Also, I have the distinct feeling I played in the wrong direction on both

and

. I can see after the sequence that things don't look quite right, but seeing before I play the stones that this is going to be the result is quite a bit more difficult.

bayu · Post by **bayu** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:47 pm

You're getting better.

Only a few remarks

high is better here. It's a manly contest between halves of the board. If the center is gonna decide, the 4th line reply will be better. (If he tries to do stuff with the corner, let him. He's gonna wreck his moyo in the process).

I wouldn't play that one. Maybe that's a good sign of your part. But the idea can't be to build a territory along the right edge. The idea should be rather to wreck his stuff. If you build a small group on the right, he gets a very good compensation in the center. You keep telling that all your invasions fail and then the opponent ones succeed. Chances are, it's always in this order: You invade and live small on the edge, the opponent gets thickness and influence towards the center and then uses it to wreck your moyo. Play a game where it is not you who does invade first. Instead of your move I'd play D15 to have a symmetric position. Balance of power. It's not exactly mirrored, but still keeping komi for blacks sente. If he goes tengen to break the symmetry, the fun will start.

crosscut! (look what the opponent did on the top side, later in the game). living along the edge won't be a winning strategy.

these things are funnier if they happen to somebody else.

even though it turned out nicely in the end, it feels ouchie. Walking into the stone at F3. Remove this from your vocabulary. If you get cutting points or you can slide under to connect, this move is OK, here it seems asking for trouble.

D11 looks way more interesting to me. You get some influence facing your stone in the corner, not unlike a wall with an extension. Jackpot. Your move doesn't reach towards helping stones.

if anything: Try crosscut (might not work to full satisfaction here, but I prefer it to the game move.). There is no need to save exactly this stone. Squeeze it like a lemon to get something else. Your move lets him build influence towards the region of the board where you want to be chief. Even if your group lived, it would have been a bad trade.

ez4u · Post by **ez4u** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:34 pm

An interesting game with various points worth commenting on. For now just one thing. Your 38 was exactly right. It was not too slow since it settles the life of your group and cuts off the Black stone above. When Black plays 49 at 1 below, however, you need to recognize that because your group below is absolutely alive, White is much stronger than Black here. You answered 1 by gripping the single Black stone with D9. This was not correct. White absolutely blocks at 2 below. The corner is a standard shape. If Black does not go back to play 9, the corner is not yet alive. Meanwhile White keeps the by now five Black stones cut off without even the beginning of eye shape. Now Black can only grow the lower right at the expense of allowing White to surround the left center.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm1 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . | $$ | . . X , . O . . . O . . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X O . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . | $$ | . . 8 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O 5 7 X . 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 9 O . O . O . X X . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . X O O X . . O O X . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:17 am

I agree with bayu. You are definitely getting better.

And I agree with Dave about

. Exactly right.

I also agree that it is an interesting game with much to comment on. I'll just make a few comments before retiring for the night.

Fedya wrote:This move really irritated me, since it's indicative of a pattern in my games where my opponents get big moyos and there never seems to be any good place to reduce them, while my opponents invade willy-nilly and get good results.

(Your comment on

)

Not my impression of the game. You started out playing a moyo vs. moyo game, not an easy strategy for White, IMO, since Black keeps the initiative well into the game. But then you made not one, but two invasions of his large moyo, without much difficulty, and then complain that he finally comes into your moyo. Yes, he got a good result, but

was a huge blunder. His clamp at

caught you by surprise, but it should not have. First, that is one of those basics that many players at your level know that you did not, until this game, anyway. Second, even without knowing it, you should have sensed danger. Simply reducing Black's dame wins the contact fight, but allows him to cut White's nearby stones off, even if Black does not see the clamp. If you just connect your stones, Black is in trouble. He has two weak groups, one of which looks like a goner, anyway. Then Black could complain that you had no trouble invading his moyo while he could do nothing against yours.

Life In 19x19

What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?

Re: What do I have to do just to get to 5k?