Review Request ~15k

[Hrabanus]

One more on my quest for serious games.
My opponent admitted later that he(?) "just fooled around" at some points. Still good enough against me. I rather enjoyed this game, instead of attacking aggressivly to win, he(?) just played better.
But i often can’t distinguish between good play and “fooling around” that just works due to my little experience. Some comments on that would be cool.
But anything will be mostly appreciated.

Afterthought: If someone prefers a file without my own review and variations, i will gladly provide that.

http://lifein19x19.com/forum/download/file.php?id=8195

[EdLee]

Hi Hrab,

Strange.

Cross-cuts are notoriously difficult. That's probably why W played .
However, there's a basic shape here that's very nice to learn.

In your variation -- let's just ignore W's cross-cut stone ( , at R4 ) for the moment.
You made the wrong atari. Can you find the correct atari.
( There are no doubt many more mistakes in the fundamentals after this,
but to me, to learn this atari is worth this game. )

[Hrabanus]

Many thanks Ed

Finding the atari was easy, once you told me. I totally agree about the importance! I had similar situations before, though without the crosscut, and just blocked below (my opponents too). I’ll try out some variations with supporting white stones in the corner to stock up my toolbox.

$$c Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X . . . .|
$$ . . X . O X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Atari
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X . . . .|
$$ . . X . O X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c Continuation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X . . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . 9 8 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Continuation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X . . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . 9 8 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Corrected diagram in post #10, i leave that here so that the following posts still make sense

$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

Cross-cuts are notoriously difficult. That's probably why W played .
However, there's a basic shape here that's very nice to learn.

Do you mean this one?:
http://senseis.xmp.net/?AtariFromCrosscut
It will take some time to work through this.

There are no doubt many more mistakes in the fundamentals …

And many a thread about it! And maybe even more opinions on the definition
A bit frustrating for me, since i like a structured approach, but for the moment i think it’s best to keep on playing, reviewing, getting reviewed.
Though "First Fundamentals" looks very tempting …

[Bill Spight]

Hint, hint.

$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

How many liberties (dame, DAH-MEH) does have?

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X . W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . . 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . . 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c How many dame?
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 W X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 . . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

[Hrabanus]

Hint, hint.

I’m not sure wether you are
a) pointing at the obvious: ladder,
or
b) i’m thick as a brick.

In case a) thinking of it as a ladder probably anchors it better in the mind.

[emeraldemon]

You showed in your diagram white killing black:

$$c added for clarity
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 0 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c added for clarity
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X 9 . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 8 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 7 0 . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

I think Bill was hinting that black can do better...

[Bill Spight]

Hint, hint.

I’m not sure wether you are
a) pointing at the obvious: ladder,
or
b) i’m thick as a brick.

In case a) thinking of it as a ladder probably anchors it better in the mind.

Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.

[Hrabanus]

So it was b)
The brick

Thanks emeraldemon

[Hrabanus]

Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.

Nothing to feel sorry for! I still miss obvious points frequently, and sometimes i’ve just "got tomatos on my eyes" (don’t know how to say that in english )

My previous post shouldn’t sound ungrateful or grumpy at all. I was just putting down my thoughts quickly without thinking about how they might sound without gestures and facial expressions.

I hope i didn’t step on your toes and if so i’m really sorry!

[Hrabanus]

On my board i played it out like this:

$$c Original Situation Corrected
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 7 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$c Original Situation Corrected
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ . . . 3 X O . . .|
$$ . . X 2 O X . . .|
$$ . . 5 4 1 7 . . .|
$$ . . . 6 . . . . .|
$$ . . . . . . . . .|
$$ --------------[/go]

But replaying it in the diagram i didn’t check it properly.
Still my blind spot: future atari

[emeraldemon]

Black can still do better.
Bill mentioned white's liberties. Why?

[Hrabanus]

Black can still do better.
Bill mentioned white's liberties. Why?

Now i got it, there is a ‘real’ ladder ( at o2), not just a ‘kind of‘ ladder

Many thanks to both of you for talking me through it!

(i think i’ll give meself the “brick-head of the day award” )

[emeraldemon]

You should give yourself the "learned something cool today" award

[Hrabanus]

You should give yourself the "learned something cool today" award

You are right! I’ll take that one too.

[Bill Spight]

Yes, I was hinting at the ladder. Sorry, I didn't realize that it was obvious to you.

Nothing to feel sorry for! I still miss obvious points frequently, and sometimes i’ve just "got tomatos on my eyes" (don’t know how to say that in english )

My previous post shouldn’t sound ungrateful or grumpy at all. I was just putting down my thoughts quickly without thinking about how they might sound without gestures and facial expressions.

I hope i didn’t step on your toes and if so i’m really sorry!

No problemo.