kirkmc wrote:I think it's just logical that if you're calling someone a "European Champion" then they must be European. Otherwise, change the denomination. (Again, look at any sport; you can't compete if you're not a citizen.)
Well, the championship is european. Who cares about the passport of the champion?
Your argument about other soprts is valid but I think Go has a special situation among other sports because it still needs to be promoted a lot in europe. If you consider there are more 5 dan players in korea than there are go players in europe, the need becomes clear.
You can of course say we have our own world and do not always need to compete against asians. This is also a valid argument. But I think this would reduce the value of the chance of having strong asian players living here and are willing to take part in european championships.
If you say no, Elwood and I will come here for breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day of the week.
kirkmc wrote:Again, look at any sport; you can't compete if you're not a citizen.
The current British Open golf champion is South African amd the reigning French Open tennis champion is Spanish. Soccer, baseball, hockey and basketball teams are full of immigrant talent. What was your point again?
richardamullens wrote:the reality is that some people want to exclude non-Europeans because they feel that they have an unfair advantage (being raised in a Go friendly environment) [...] Of course they will deny this and say it is because people are interested in who is the best European player (when we know that anyway).
You are spreading bad rumours only. If you call it reality, you must also name people who, according to you, want to exclude non-Europeans because they feel that they have an unfair advantage (being raised in a Go friendly environment).
I don't know why you ask this when I'm sure that you know the answer - I believe this post that I'm sure you are aware of http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... en&ct=clnk qualifies as evidence for the reality. (There is no denial here, it is upfront. Others, I believe, assert a widespread interest in determining who is the best European when I doubt that is if of much interest to the bulk of EG congress goers).
kirkmc wrote:Again, look at any sport; you can't compete if you're not a citizen.
The current British Open golf champion is South African and the reigning French Open tennis champion is Spanish. Soccer, baseball, hockey and basketball teams are full of immigrant talent. What was your point again?
Those are national championships, which is a different matter. Is there any European and/or World Championship in any major sport that allows non-citizens to represent countries?
The recent FIFA world cup only allowed passport holders in national teams. Same thing is true for the European Championship.
The FIFA actually have additional rules in place, such as requiring passport holders to also have been resident for a sufficient period of time in the country they want to play for, or to have been born there, etc. Extra rules meant to prevent countries from unfairly influencing the competition by quickly granting citizenship to strong players who otherwise have no relation to the country in question.
Harleqin wrote: It does not get better with context. The context just shows how you dragged a reasonable standpoint artifically into the direction where you could make the inappropriate comparison.
It seemed that the proposal was being ridiculed quite unfairly.
But your post is (also ?) an attack on the poster rather than an evaluation of the proposal.
Some people like the proposed idea and it has the merit of being straightforward to apply. I think it is better than a residency test as it is an encouragement for resident aliens to participate. Personally I would not propose a threshold of less than a dozen and I see no harm in applying it to all nationalities if it were thought discriminatory.
kirkmc wrote:Again, look at any sport; you can't compete if you're not a citizen.
The current British Open golf champion is South African amd the reigning French Open tennis champion is Spanish. Soccer, baseball, hockey and basketball teams are full of immigrant talent. What was your point again?
First, open tournaments are just that - they are not national or regional championships. Second, did you watch the World Cup? Were there any players who weren't citizens of the countries they represented? What was your point again?
kirkmc wrote:First, open tournaments are just that - they are not national or regional championships. Second, did you watch the World Cup? Were there any players who weren't citizens of the countries they represented? What was your point again?
Yes, but they were representing their countries in a team sport. That's hugely different to representing yourself as an individual. No one is expecting Hwang In-Seong to represent Germany at the WAGC for example.
kirkmc wrote:Again, look at any sport; you can't compete if you're not a citizen.
The current British Open golf champion is South African and the reigning French Open tennis champion is Spanish.
Those are national championships, which is a different matter.
Those are not national championships; ie, they don't determine who is the British or French champions. (FWIW, the "French Open" is not called the French Open in France...) For comparison, I've been watching the Tour de France. Each rider who is a national champion (ie, selected in a race in his country for citizens of the country) is allowed, at certain times, to wear their national champion's jersey. But the winner of the Tour de France is not considered the French national champion.
There's really nothing that's hard to understand in this concept, and I'm pretty amazed that there are people here who don't understand.
kirkmc wrote:First, open tournaments are just that - they are not national or regional championships. Second, did you watch the World Cup? Were there any players who weren't citizens of the countries they represented? What was your point again?
Yes, but they were representing their countries in a team sport. That's hugely different to representing yourself as an individual. No one is expecting Hwang In-Seong to represent Germany at the WAGC for example.
I don't see the difference. In order to qualify for recognition you need to be of the nationality of the country or region that is "sponsoring" the championship. In a team sport, you're a citizen of the country. In a regional, individual sport (say tennis), you're a citizen of the country, or, if it's Europe, the "region", however Europe is defined. Look at the upcoming European Athletics championships. These are individual sports, for the most part, and the participants are citizens of specific European countries. The fact that they are competing under the umbrella of a national team means they have to be a citizen of that country.
A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.
There's been quite some press around several Dutch speed skaters that applied for an Uzbek passport in order to be able to participate in international events. They were not good enough to qualify as Dutch skaters, because there are plenty of better skaters in the Netherlands, but since Uzbekistan has no skaters to speak of, they tried to circumvent the rules allowing only a limited number of participants per country this way.
HermanHiddema wrote: There's been quite some press around several Dutch speed skaters that applied for an Uzbek passport in order to be able to participate in international events. They were not good enough to qualify as Dutch skaters, because there are plenty of better skaters in the Netherlands, but since Uzbekistan has no skaters to speak of, they tried to circumvent the rules allowing only a limited number of participants per country this way.
There are other sports where this is done too. There are a number of Africans who run for European countries, and one Jamaican sprinter who runs for, I think, Dubai. Unfortunately, this is allowed, but it'd be hard to not allow it, because immigration is a reality, and there are many "real" immigrants who get nationalities and compete for their welcoming countries.
HermanHiddema wrote:A good example sport, IMO, is speed skating. They've been holding European Championships for well over a hundred years. Its an individual sport and it requires you to be a passport holder in a European country in order to participate.
I don't really buy the argument (if you are making it - certainly others seem to be) that just because this or that sport applies restrictions on who may participate, we should do likewise.
Personally I think it would be more honourable if the European Go community avoided these relics of nationalism.
The European community (EEC) started off small and is a model of cooperation in response to centuries of warfare. Perhaps Asian countries would not wish to join - but I see these divisions mostly as protectionism and we do not seem to be immune from that either.
