The Story of a Loser - The Great Pitfall of Studying Go!

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:03 am

Still in the game of post #24, there is even a much better choice for :b22:

! In the game of post #29 at :w20:

just capture that stone on top and declare white's victory, what were you afraid of? :b21:

at F4 would not work for black (why?).

BlindGroup · Post by **BlindGroup** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 10:43 am

"Watching videos is nice but honestly I believe we watch them mainly for entertainment. I can't speak for Nick Sibicky's videos but I'm guilty of watching a lot of similar style chess videos. The effect is - in my case - more than marginal. It's fun, sure, but in terms of progress it seems a huge waste of time."

Ian just a note on this comment. I think everyone is probably different in how they learn. I actually find the go videos to be extremely helpful. I've learned quite a bit from Sibicky, for example. However, most of his lectures are not pitched to people who have just started. I think there is someone making videos for your level, but I don't know the name -- although I think it was mentioned in a Sibicky video ;-)

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:42 am

schawipp wrote:Still in the game of post #24, there is even a much better choice for ! In the game of post #29 at just capture that stone on top and declare white's victory, what were you afraid of? at F4 would not work for black (why?).

Better move for :b22:

is 4-2? That way he can take me but with a takeback I can kill 4 stones and have 2 eyed group?
Game of post 29: Not sure why I didn't do that. I used to take prisoners instantly but then learned there's no rush but maybe this time I misjudged it and should've killed instantly. F4 would not work because he'd end up in a ladder if he pushed it?
Thanks for the feedback!

jgr314 wrote:Note: I'm just starting to play, too, so I'm not claiming this is right. Looking to share ideas and get feedback (esp corrections).

It seems doesn't need to be played at D2, but could be played at D8. My thinking is that D2 tries to
(a) protect stones at D1 and group at E2. But if black plays D2, white can capture at G1, so there's no need to rush.
(b) open a route into the left side for mischief. But D8 should be just as good for that b/c black at D7 needs another move to connect to friends.

Is there a better place than D8? Maybe C3 could be made into something?

Perhaps B2 as an alternative for move ? I don't know if it is possible to do more in the lower left than you accomplished in the game. When I try out some variations, I get to keep a little territory in that corner, but maybe I'm not playing black correctly.

Yes you may be right about :w22:

. At the time it seemed like a good move to open up potential on the lower left. But since he went ahead on top and ended up in sente it didn't come to afwul much. Cheers for thinking about it. I find that I learn a lot from these type of thoughts after the game.

BlindGroup wrote:"Watching videos is nice but honestly I believe we watch them mainly for entertainment. I can't speak for Nick Sibicky's videos but I'm guilty of watching a lot of similar style chess videos. The effect is - in my case - more than marginal. It's fun, sure, but in terms of progress it seems a huge waste of time."

Ian just a note on this comment. I think everyone is probably different in how they learn. I actually find the go videos to be extremely helpful. I've learned quite a bit from Sibicky, for example. However, most of his lectures are not pitched to people who have just started. I think there is someone making videos for your level, but I don't know the name -- although I think it was mentioned in a Sibicky video

Thanks a lot for your comment. It's actually a while since I watched a video now but since the last time I've gotten much better already at the game (went from 23 kyu to 21 kyu on OGS and even 20 kyu but because a time-out win against a 17 kyu so I think my level is right around 21.
I think I'll be going back to Sibicky videos when the time allows it and I'll understand much more of it now.

I've also read Fundamentals of Go. Inspirational but like some of you said here a bit above my level. Read it for enjoyment mostly.
Now I ordered 2 new books to help me improve:
- Elementary Go Series, Volume 3: Tesuji
- Graded Go Problems For Beginners - Volume Three: Intermediate Problems

Originally I wanted Graded Go Problems volume 2 but it was sold out so I'll give this a go and if it's too hard I'll keep it for later and try to get my hands on volume 2 elsewhere.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:38 pm

Ian Butler wrote:Now I ordered 2 new books to help me improve:
- Elementary Go Series, Volume 3: Tesuji
- Graded Go Problems For Beginners - Volume Three: Intermediate Problems

Originally I wanted Graded Go Problems volume 2 but it was sold out so I'll give this a go and if it's too hard I'll keep it for later and try to get my hands on volume 2 elsewhere.

Volume 3 of GGPB is good for my level (4k). From looking at your games, I suggest starting with Volume 1 if you can find it. Some of it will be pretty easy, but that will build your confidence, and it will do a good job of exposing (and fixing!) the holes in your basic knowledge. I think it would be counterproductive to try to solve the problems in Volume 3 for now (although I usually recommend doing simpler problems than most do). Hopefully soon enough you will catch up to it!

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:32 pm

dfan wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:Now I ordered 2 new books to help me improve:
- Elementary Go Series, Volume 3: Tesuji
- Graded Go Problems For Beginners - Volume Three: Intermediate Problems

Originally I wanted Graded Go Problems volume 2 but it was sold out so I'll give this a go and if it's too hard I'll keep it for later and try to get my hands on volume 2 elsewhere.

Volume 3 of GGPB is good for my level (4k). From looking at your games, I suggest starting with Volume 1 if you can find it. Some of it will be pretty easy, but that will build your confidence, and it will do a good job of exposing (and fixing!) the holes in your basic knowledge. I think it would be counterproductive to try to solve the problems in Volume 3 for now (although I usually recommend doing simpler problems than most do). Hopefully soon enough you will catch up to it!

Hmm okay thanks. I thought it might be okay because the book said 10-20kyu and I'm nearly 20 but I'll leave it at the side for now and get my hands on volume 1 or 2.

Invited a friend who played Go a time ago but stopped playing because of lack of time and lack of interested players around him. He's better than me but it had been a very long time for him so we decided no handicap and just see what happened. It ended up as the most fun I've ever had at a game. What a close and anxious game. Mistakes on both sides, obviously, but also some very nice moves I think. The game turned into 1 big fight to decide everything. I went from a strong position to a lesser position and strong again and so on and on.
Until, from fatigue, too (we had been playing almost 1,5 hours at that point), I made the crucial mistake of :b211:
I'll analyse and review the game for myself later on. But I really wanted to share this one. Still pumped from the game. It took about two hours, too.
Quickly looking back at it, though, I made some big mistakes. Looking at the situation at around move 140 or so, I can't believe I completely lost that right bottom corner like that. All that space should've been mine :roll:

Awesome game! :cool:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:50 pm

Hi Ian,

Strange. Q3 is natural.

:b19:

Solid. Did you also consider E5 ?

:b25:

D8 very big: capture the 2 W stones cleanly.

:b27:

Very strange. Why did you miss D8 twice ?
Re: dfan's suggestion about GGPB vol. 1.

:b31:

Very, very strange. Locally, C15.
E4 is huge.

:w42:

Gote. No reason to reply.

:b47:

Even at this level, you should ask yourself: why ?
Look at the whole board. Why are you playing a 0.5 point move now ?!

Other than obvious mistakes ( such as other first-line moves, or clearly nonsense moves ),
almost anything else is bigger than :b47:

!

,

Bill uses a term Follow-itis --
to blindly follow our opponent's moves,
without considering the whole board and deciding for ourselves what's the biggest move.

One of the biggest problems shown in this game.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:27 pm

Ian Butler wrote:
dfan wrote:Volume 3 of GGPB is good for my level (4k). From looking at your games, I suggest starting with Volume 1 if you can find it. Some of it will be pretty easy, but that will build your confidence, and it will do a good job of exposing (and fixing!) the holes in your basic knowledge. I think it would be counterproductive to try to solve the problems in Volume 3 for now (although I usually recommend doing simpler problems than most do). Hopefully soon enough you will catch up to it!

Hmm okay thanks. I thought it might be okay because the book said 10-20kyu and I'm nearly 20 but I'll leave it at the side for now and get my hands on volume 1 or 2.

Yeah, the suggested ranks on the GGPB books are famously ludicrous, which is unfortunate. I'd say the ranges for the four books should be something more like 30-20k, 20-10k, 10-6k, and 5k-1k.

schawipp · Post by **schawipp** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:43 am

Ian Butler wrote:
schawipp wrote:Still in the game of post #24, there is even a much better choice for ! In the game of post #29 at just capture that stone on top and declare white's victory, what were you afraid of? at F4 would not work for black (why?).
Better move for is 4-2? That way he can take me but with a takeback I can kill 4 stones and have 2 eyed group?

Well, the black group spanning around all over the board shall be pretty safe even after the game move. The effect of :b22:

one field below would be that

- (i) it is bigger in points (white can no more easily extend further to the left) and
- (ii) it weakens the lower right white corner stones - i.e. it would possibly provoke w to make a defensive move there, letting you the initiative (which is big, especially on 9x9)

The point is - if you start recognizing those snapback shapes automatically - it will always give you some advantage in such situations which finally would make you climb several stones upwards.

Ian Butler wrote:F4 would not work because he'd end up in a ladder if he pushed it?

Agreed.

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:53 pm

Had the privilege of playing a former 6-dan (now still 4-5 dan) player. Real impressive, unbelievable.
Meanwhile I'm reading in the Tesuji book. Problems are solveable, some are a bit too hard, though.

Played some more games and it's getting better. Lost from a 14 kyu player (19x19) but only one and a half point so fairly close (though at times he suggested direction of play for me) but still a good game.
Another game against a 20 kyu (9x9) went quite well. Made some mistakes but never gave up and recognized a dead form and took advantage. I'll post that one below.

jgr314 · Post by **jgr314** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:49 am

From the game in post #39, some ideas/questions:
:b21:

play at G3, the lower right 3-3 point instead? The idea is to start occupying the corner and get ready for the fight in that area. My thinking is that B5 isn't necessary then b/c you already have superior forces in that area.

:b27:

and

you can see that you got caught in a ladder, so needed a different move at :b27:

to save those stones. I think your actual play at :b27:

was good (seal white into right side, start claiming the left corner), but then you could have played :b29:

elsewhere, rather than adding to your loses. I'm guessing a stone in the bottom left is necessary, but I'm not sure where. What about E4, white either takes at H3 or connects at F2, then you play E2 sealing him out of that corner?

:b31:

is this better at E2, or does that exchange help secure the corner for black?

:w52:

,

, or

should have been played at E9 to save all the stones on the top. Alternatively, black could have played E9 earlier.

:b57:

this cost you three stones of your own and the capture of the other large chunk of whites on the top left. If the corner had been open, you would have had an extra liberty to defend when cut at B7.

Cool1 · Post by **Cool1** » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:59 am

Hello, Ian.

I'm new to Go also and have enjoyed this thread.

If you'd ever like to play a 13x13 correspondence game, it'd be fun. Create a board and shoot me an invite on DragonGo.net (same Cool1 there) and I promise to give you a thoughtful, careful match.

I find that when I'm playing live Go (KSG), I make mistakes. As a new player (self-ranked at 28 kyu, but I'm probably a bit higher), I enjoy keeping a real board set up for correspondence Go and thinking through every move, telling myself "look, there's only a few 'good' moves here, so which is it?"

If you're already bogged down with games, no need to play now. Maybe sometime in the future.

I'll follow your progress on this thread with interest.

With respect, Steve.

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:47 am

Mostly because of my work, I sort of let Go slide for about a year. But I recently picked it back up and I hope to keep playing it regularly, now. I aim to spend 1 hour a day on Go on average and see how much I can improve.
So, back to the board! Happy about it, too.

So with that said, this is a game I just played which shows about where I am right now, I guess. Game was 10 minute game clock + 3x30s, so time definitely played a part. This was mostly instinctive play without much reading.
I made a couple of big mistakes, but I think I made some good moves, too.

Most important thing is that I'm back! more in love with Go than ever, I might add. Can't believe I forgot about it for a year. Sometimes life takes over and fools like me allow it to

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:57 am

Another game. Played quite well, I think.
Only two big blunders in the endgame. Still, says a lot of my midgame when I still win with over 10 points.

Although I'm not too happy about double blindness near the end there. My concentration needs to be better!

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:12 am

So, a small update on my game!

I've gotten some great equipment from my brother (what a gift), a new board and glass stones, which is a great motivating to study even harder.
I've also purchased a magnetic board and some more books to help.

Trying to get better I've been reading some books with both life-and-death problems, but also middle-game and opening questions. I'm also browsing through 'shape up' by Chikun, but it's a bit above my level I think. Still, learning some interesting shapes and key points.

I've also finally (up for debate, though) learning some joseki. I'm trying to learn a new one every few days. I look them up, with someone explaining the moves and why this is joseki, then I play it out multiple times, switching colors and sides of the board, then I write them down the next day on a kifu, so my collection will grow. I practise all joseki I know every two days, too.

Besides that, I try to go to the Go club every week or at least 3 times a month, where I play stronger players. I've played less online, though, because I just don't feel the same connection to the game clicking. I love those stones too much. But I should probably at least play a few games a week.

A game I just played was the following, it was pretty okay, I think.

daal · Post by **daal** » Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:33 pm

Shape Up! is not by "Chikun," it is by "Charles." As in Charles Matthews.

As to the game, it reminded me of someone walking their dog. Most moves were played very close to a just previously played stone. Both players should think about not following the opponent around so much. In general - if a group is alive, there is usually something more valuable than continuing to defend it, though if your opponent forces you to make points while defending, why not?

Life In 19x19

The Story of a Loser - The Great Pitfall of Studying Go!

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