I think rude behavior does not depend on the server. Recently I played a 9x9 and a 19x19 game on OGS. In the first game my opponent didn't made any greetings but later asked me to move faster. On that day, it was probably additionally emphasized by some server lagging (the OGS user interface has been upgraded and there were obviously some temporary lagging issues, some days later they seem have fixed...). In the second game, my opponend disconnected while counting; so I had about 5:00 min of "spare time" to check my email etc.
swannod wrote:In general if I'm not familiar the opponent or playing over a real board - I'm not interested in reviews between myself and someone who is the same level as myself. No personal connection and too few insights.
Well, if everyone shared this attitude there were no reviews at all
If I review my own games in most cases I would find some obvious mistakes or improvements which I didn't see during gameplay. In most cases it's not rocket science. It feels like I'm about 3 stones stronger when reviewing my games instead of playing. I assume that also applies for my opponents. Therefore I try to combine self-reviews, reviews with opponents of weaker/same strength and sometimes (especially when I've no clue) ask stronger players for review or bring my game to the local club. But that's just my 2 ct.
schawipp wrote:Well, if everyone shared this attitude there were no reviews at all
If I review my own games in most cases I would find some obvious mistakes or improvements which I didn't see during gameplay. In most cases it's not rocket science. It feels like I'm about 3 stones stronger when reviewing my games instead of playing. I assume that also applies for my opponents. Therefore I try to combine self-reviews, reviews with opponents of weaker/same strength and sometimes (especially when I've no clue) ask stronger players for review or bring my game to the local club. But that's just my 2 ct.
Yes, I wasn't expressing an anti-review attitude here I'm just saying that if the review is between people of the same level you're unlikely to get any big insights beyond what you would get from self-review. Reviews are important and I get reviews from stronger players via GoKibitz and being a student in American Yunguseng.
swannod wrote:I believe it's proper etiquette for the loser to request the review?
Does anyone know the answer to this?
If I'm unintentionally being rude -- that might explain the rude replies! As I see it, I often review my games regardless of the outcome. So, when I have time for a review, I always invite my opponent -- out of both politeness and selfishness. Even if I won, I'm sure that my opponent had ideas that did not occur to me.
And if this is the norm, this seems odd to me -- reviewing your game is generally useful. So, why should there be an asymmetry in who gets to extend the offer? In fact, my initial thought on this was that excluding my opponent from a review would be rude.
In an ideal world, I'd agree with you, but in reality I'd agree with swannod. If I just lost a game to someone who has the same rank as me and this person asked me to review, it really feels like this person is saying to me "Let's go over your mistakes". Sure that's probably not the case, but I just lost a game, so I'm not in the best mood and I'm probably more emotional than rational at that point in time (i.e., if my opponent PM'd me a day later asking me to review our game, I'd be much more inclined to agree). And since my opponent is the same rank as me, as shallow as it sounds, I'd refuse to think that my opponent could come up with anything in a review that would be insightful to me. After all, my opponent is the same rank as me and I could just as easily come up with anything he or she comes up with! But in an ideal world, even the opponent that's 6 stones weaker than you who just won you in a 6-stone game could have ideas that didn't occur to you, right? It just comes down to pride.
Solomon wrote:After all, my opponent is the same rank as me and I could just as easily come up with anything he or she comes up with! But in an ideal world, even the opponent that's 6 stones weaker than you who just won you in a 6-stone game could have ideas that didn't occur to you, right? It just comes down to pride.
Right this is another reason to take it to a stronger player. With a player of the same level I'm more likely to quibble about unimportant details. Time and time again with reviews with players of the same level most of the things discussed aren't that important (yes a couple of things you might be right about and couple of things they might be right). The review with a much stronger player gives a much more useful story and they often don't mention any of the things you talked about with a player of the same level.
Well, playing slowly *can* be intentionally annoying (read the chess novella by Zweig), but nagging your opponent on is always impolite.
For the review of a won game, you might try something like: "I will review the game now, join me if you like, I would welcome your point of view."
I am playing on ogs and I have experienced a big improvement with my rank increase. Playing correspondence games also helps a lot. Trolls and sandbaggers usually search for more immediate prey.
In all my years playing on KGS, I've only run into one person who berated me for moving slowly. He even insisted that going into byo-yomi in the middle game was cheating. It was an extremely unpleasant experience, but it hasn't been common. (I have sped up my play some since then, though I don't intentionally try to play fast.)
I would never have thought of an offer to review the game as rude. That others would surprises me, though I can understand not wanting to look over a game if the defeat still hurts.
swannod wrote:I believe it's proper etiquette for the loser to request the review?
Does anyone know the answer to this?
If I'm unintentionally being rude -- that might explain the rude replies! As I see it, I often review my games regardless of the outcome. So, when I have time for a review, I always invite my opponent -- out of both politeness and selfishness. Even if I won, I'm sure that my opponent had ideas that did not occur to me.
And if this is the norm, this seems odd to me -- reviewing your game is generally useful. So, why should there be an asymmetry in who gets to extend the offer? In fact, my initial thought on this was that excluding my opponent from a review would be rude.
In an ideal world, I'd agree with you, but in reality I'd agree with swannod. If I just lost a game to someone who has the same rank as me and this person asked me to review, it really feels like this person is saying to me "Let's go over your mistakes". Sure that's probably not the case, but I just lost a game, so I'm not in the best mood and I'm probably more emotional than rational at that point in time (i.e., if my opponent PM'd me a day later asking me to review our game, I'd be much more inclined to agree). And since my opponent is the same rank as me, as shallow as it sounds, I'd refuse to think that my opponent could come up with anything in a review that would be insightful to me. After all, my opponent is the same rank as me and I could just as easily come up with anything he or she comes up with! But in an ideal world, even the opponent that's 6 stones weaker than you who just won you in a 6-stone game could have ideas that didn't occur to you, right? It just comes down to pride.
Well, I for one am generally grateful when a better player (i.e., someone who just slaughtered me) offers a review. I rarely feel like it's my privilege to demand/request a review from somebody after a casual game. So, in my opinion, there's nothing at all wrong with asking the other player if they want to review a game. If the other player has a fragile ego after losing, and would rather sulk than take the opportunity to improve, that's their problem.
I'm just saying that if the review is between people of the same level you're unlikely to get any big insights beyond what you would get from self-review. Reviews are important and I get reviews from stronger players via GoKibitz and being a student in American Yunguseng.
