Learning from the Master

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:15 am

John Fairbairn wrote:the tiger-mouth peep was not uncommon in the 1960s and was played by the likes of Fujisawa Hideyuki and Go Seigen. I suppose we may have to assume modern pros really are not familiar with the games of even Go Seigen.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I meant this one:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O X X . . . | $$ , . . O . O , X . . | $$ . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ . . . . . . . X . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Not:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . O X X . . . | $$ , . . O . O , X . . | $$ . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

pookpooi · Post by **pookpooi** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:06 am

I really hate myself that I miss this wonderful conference that happen just about an hour ago, hope it'll upload full talk later #DLD17 Demis Hassabis just told that AlphaGo will focus on...

https://twitter.com/danielequercia/stat ... 3629748224
https://twitter.com/dwingenter/status/8 ... 5350348800

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:50 am

That's great news. It makes sense that they would focus on using AlphaGo as a teaching agent since that is groundbreaking work that will eventually transfer to other fields. Still, it's great to know that the project won't be put on the shelf and will continue to benefit the go community and hopefully, by extension, humanity.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:12 am

Just to make sure we are on the same page, I meant this one:

Me, too.

yoyoma · Post by **yoyoma** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:45 pm

I wish Google would release logs that show for each move the expected win probabilities, and some other things like the policy network's idea of likely moves etc. That would give us something to consider without any fancy teaching tools.

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:47 pm

An Dongxu 6p tries out the tenuki after push variation Uberdude mentioned earlier in this thread:

This is a pretty weird game. Look at the position at move 25:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B A ponnuki in the corner is worth what? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . X O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . , . . . . X O X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:11 pm

A very similar fuseki to one Zhou played against Shi Yue a few weeks ago: viewtopic.php?p=214957#p214957. It seems he was sufficiently impressed by AlphaGo's (and Lee Chang ho before etc) attachment into the Chinese formation that it's now his standard way to deal with it. In the game with Shi black didn't make the ponnuki and Zhou pulled the stone out. An's e2 hane and e4 atari are also moves that are perhaps influenced by AlphaGo which humans would often feel crude for playing but AlphaGo doesn't mind making those exchanges.

Calvin Clark · Post by **Calvin Clark** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:09 pm

Now there are too many recent games to mention where some Master moves are being used. Interesting times.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:04 pm

A general feeling I have about AlphaGo is that AlphaGo is willing to play "aji-keshi" moves, probably because it has already decided on its fuseki strategy.

For example, pros were hesitant to play the aji-keshi tiger's mouth peep Uberdude mentions *early on* in the game, because it eliminates the option of playing a different way later on.

I feel like AlphaGo has already decided the global strategy and isn't, therefore, concerned about a play that pros would locally consider to be aji keshi.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Fri Jan 20, 2017 3:09 pm

There's a lot of interesting games in the Tianyuan tournament with some AlphaGo/Master ideas, but first a rather fun move that surprised me but makes sense in hindsight:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W White (Chen Xian 5p) to play against Gu Li 9p, Tianyuan round 3 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | O . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X O O O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X O . . O . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O X X O O . . . . . . O X X O X O | $$ | . O O . . X . . . . . . . . O O O X . | $$ | 3 2 X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . X , X O . | $$ | . . . 4 . X . 1 . . . X . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Hint:

Answer:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | O . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X O O O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X O . . O . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O X X O O . . . . . . O X X O X O | $$ | . O O . . X . . . . . . . . O O O X . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . X . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . . X , . . . . X , X O . | $$ | . . . X . X . O . . . X . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Continuation:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | O . O . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | X O O O X O O O . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | X X X O X O X X . . . O . O X . . . . | $$ | . X O X X X O . . O . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . X O . . . . . X . . . X . . | $$ | . O O X X O O . . . . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . O X X . X O . . . . . . . . . X O . | $$ | . X O X X O O . . . . . . O X X O X O | $$ | . O O . . X . . . . . . . . O O O X . | $$ | O X X X . . . . . , . . . 0 . , . X . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . X O X O O . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . O . O . | $$ | . . . X O X O . . . . . . X . O O X . | $$ | . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . 7 . . . 9 . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . O . . . 5 X , . . . . X , X O . | $$ | . . . X 1 X 3 O 6 8 . X . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . O 2 4 . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The whole game was very interesting, with flexible (or would we call it inconsistent if he lost?) play from Gu Li with some early shoulder hits like his game with Master, and then tenukis, and a fun ko at the top left and funny trades on the right side.

The next round Gu lost to Zhou Ruiyang 9p who went all-out Master style with the big shimari and shoulder hit, tenuki the top right 3-3. Funnily enough despite all black's shoulder hits white ended up with a large centre territory, but black got more in the trades on the sides.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:24 am

As part of the BIBA online teaching there was a special lecture this weekend from Kim Jiseok 9p in which he reviewed his game with Master we discussed here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Game 41 Master (white) vs Kim Jiseok $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 6 . . 4 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X 7 5 O O X 2 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O 1 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X 3 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 a . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 8 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . | $$ | . . X . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Kim said that he regrets the hane of 17, and would prefer to directly cut (as dfan reports CrazyStone also prefers) so that white is induced into further hurting the outside stone and increasing black's thickness as he shores up the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm17 Kim's preference $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X 3 1 O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O 6 . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X 4 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 7 5 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Something I found interesting here is Kim immediately blocked at 21 instead of turning at 23 (which I thought was a good move aiming taking sente if white plays honte to fix the corner aji) and said no reason not to and corner aji not so spectacular (so I think he expects white to tenuki?)). Something important to note with black blocking like this is he can block the upper side if white slides (but in the game you can't):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wcm1 White can't extend at 5 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 1 2 7 8 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . 4 3 O 6 . 0 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X X X O O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O O O . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

He said he didn't expect white's large knight's move of 26 in the first diagram and it was a good move. I asked if instead of that he should have played around the centre to preserve the influence, such as at a as Ryu Minhyung played against him in the GS Caltex cup a few months ago. He said, maybe yes, but he wants to know what Master would play after that. Also he said when he invaded (after the lower left sequence) at b he knew it was an overplay (and c proper) but he was looking for complications.

Also he thinks AlphaGo is 2 to 3 (but nearer 2) stones stronger than top humans, that slower time limits won't help much (yes games are higher quality as humans play better but he thinks AlphaGo will too, I'm not sure I agree as I think bot is probably nearer its skill plateau than a human at 30 seconds a move), nor would a team of 10 pros. But if just he had a pocket Alpha Go he thinks he would become strongest human (he said Ke Jie #1 and Park Junghwan #2, but he finds Park harder to beat) and could improve about a stone.

He also reviewed Park Junghwan's game against DeepZenGo from the WGC, if you join the BIBA program you can probably get access to the full lecture recording (but yes, Zen was winning considerably and threw it away).

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:50 am

Some more Master-inspired openings, featuring Kim Jiseok trying Master's unusual kick of low approach to a 3-4 when you've got another one in the corner behind aiming to press and overconcentrate, which Michael Redmond commented on vs Lian Xiao game 17: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BCcxfyvh1w. Mi Yuting came up with an interesting counter of attaching rather than kosumi against the other approach (strengthens opponent, but harder to tenuki and you make a higher formation) and then playing an extension to the 5th line and crawling/marching on the 4th line when Kim cut!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Kim Jiseok (black) vs Mi Yuting $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 O . . . . . . . . . . O 1 . . . | $$ | . . 7 , . . . . . , . . . . 2 , X . . | $$ | . . X 4 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 9 0 . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm11 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X b . 4 6 8 0 , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . X O O 3 5 7 9 . 2 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . a X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Kim then made the 2 space high shimari that Master has made fashionable, and Mi ran out and then sacrificed it to make a group on the left side. Later on Kim broke into the top side and made powerful thickness starting at a, but Mi captured the top right corner in exchange and then when he skillfully lived in Kim's centre moyo it all seemed over.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm21 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . X , . O O O O , . . a . O , X . . | $$ | . . X O O X X X X . O . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X O . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . 5 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 6 4 . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 0 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If this is a good counter for white I wonder how Master would play as black. Maybe not defend at 11 in diagram 2 if the threatened cut at 13 is not so spectacular with Mi's 12. Instead pincer on the top side? I think 11 is because Kim doesn't want white to be able to cut at a and get b in sente (which fixes the cut there and also makes cut at 13 possible to atari down from other side). Or maybe Kim's result was ok and he failed to utilise the thickness enough later: Mi living everywhere was quite the sabaki masterclass.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun May 07, 2017 2:10 am

Uberdude wrote:It seems to generally favour the low over high approach to a 3-4 stone, but when it does and is 2-space-high pincered and the big knight table shape joseki follows I've seen it twice push through to take the corner and give a big wall, which afaik human joseki knowledge says is bad. <snip about 1st game vs Kim Jiseok>. This kind of centre balance of power seems to be something bots are good at, and I feel any advantage black gets with that corner not-joseki could well be erased in a single careless move on the outside.

Here's another example versus Jiang Weijie 9p: again we see the immediate hoshi and some knight jumps for 34-38. The way it ignored approach to play 38 makes me think 37 tenuki could be a mistake. Are pros too keen to play normal opening approach moves when some fancy centre move is the key point?

$$Wm34 Game 35 Master (white) vs Jiang Weijie
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . 1 . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 8 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm34 Game 35 Master (white) vs Jiang Weijie $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . 1 . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 8 5 . 7 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . 9 0 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X X X X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...how should black play to preserve the influence of the wall if tenuki is a mistake.

In the second game black's counter pincer of 35 feels good and white jumps out with the small knight move, but he then tenukis for an approach of 37 which I think is likely a mistake: continuing the fight on top looks urgent gives how nice Master's 38 is. I'm not sure where, maybe k13?

$$Wm34 Is this the vital point? how about counter at a?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O X O . . 1 . . 2 . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . a . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O X X X X X . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm34 Is this the vital point? how about counter at a? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . 1 . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X O . . a . . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X X X X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In the latest AGA Master review, Michael Redmond heavily criticises Jiang's approach of 37 above, indeed saying the centre is more important. Rather than the shoulder hit I suggested (which is more about trying to surround the centre but could be too thin), he wants to black to take the vital point to attack white's shape and swallow up the cutting stone naturally in an efficient way. He also thinks the fast time limits are likely a contributing factor for Jiang's poor play ("I want more time to decide on the centre so let's approach and hope he answers to get another 30 seconds").

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wm34 Recommendation of Michael Redmond $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X O . . 1 . . 2 . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X W . . . 4 . 3 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X X X X . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Redmond's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vVe1pKmhQ4

I also noticed this left side shape (of avoiding avalanche joseki plus push though table shape in magic sword joseki) cropped up in a game played by Antti Tormanen in February. However in that game Antti's opponent had made the equivalent approach on move 5 and Antti answered (triangles) which I think means his position was already inferior to Master's as the avoiding-avalanche joseki choice reduces the value of that side and makes answering there small (as seen by Master's 2 tenukis and allowing the double approach, which was not so severe as normal as Michael points out in his review). In that game Black cut rather than 2nd line hane after Antti pushed through to get the thicker wall.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Nishioka Masao 1p (Black) vs. Antti Tormanen 1p (White) B+R $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . Y . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Q . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O X 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . , . X . . O O X . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon May 08, 2017 2:42 am

Top pros are recently trying out very early 3-3 invasions in Master style:

[2017-05-05] 19th Chinese City League A, round 4
Lee Donghoon 8p (Black) vs. Ke Jie 9p (White) W+R

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

[2017-05-07] 1st ENN Cup, round 4
Zhou Ruiyang 9p (Black) vs. Shin Jinseo 8p (White) B+R

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 1 , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Also the black shape attack at 2 in response to white's knight's move was played by Master in the same right half board position of game #36 vs Gu Zihao. In that game Gu pressed at 4 immediately and a trade resulting in White capturing the side checking extension stone and black capturing the 2 kicked stones. In fact in that game Master then continued with an early 3-3. Pros playing the big high shimari is so common now it's almost not worth mentioning!

And this one from Park Yeonghun a couple of months ago.
[2017-03-27] 3rd Mlily Cup, preliminary
Park Yeonghun 9p (Black) vs. Yu Zhiying 5p (White) B+R

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Revilo · Post by **Revilo** » Mon May 08, 2017 7:36 am

Uberdude wrote:

[2017-05-07] 1st ENN Cup, round 4
Zhou Ruiyang 9p (Black) vs. Shin Jinseo 8p (White) B+R

That's funny. I was just browsing over this game on Go4go and thought I'd go and recommend it on here.

I recalled that you labeled Black's play at the bottom as AlphaGo-esque in your comments of your British Candidates games. And then there came the 3-3 invasion plus unfinished joseki.

Initially I thought that black also played a fifth line shoulder hit shorty after your diagram. It was on the forth line though but still Black seems to have taken a very close look at AlphaGo's games.

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