who qualifies as european?

[Bantari]

Aside from all the PC rhetoric concerning nation-state prerogatives, it seems to me that globalization trends will prevail regardless of regional proclivities. All of this hand waving concerning European status only delays the inevitable at best. Why not prepare for the future rather than hopelessly try to preserve the past, which was never there in the first place. Magicwand, et al have already pointed out the obvious. The West needs to catch up with East and there's no other path than to acknowledge the disparity and work toward competing against the best of the best.

The bottom line - they don't need us. We need them. They can ignored us without affect.

Well... apparently they like the 'our' money...
Not just as tournament prizes, but also as growing markets for selling equipment, lessons, knowledge, and all kinds of other stuff.
I do not think it is right for the Europeans to understate their importance in the 'Grand Scheme of Go Economy'.

As for the 'global village' argument... I am not sure if you ever spent time around any kind of minority groups, but my experience tells me that the stronger the push from the outside to abandon one's culture and roots (and thus - uniqueness), the stronger the resistance. I have known emigrant groups in foreign countries placing a much stronger value on their 'uniqueness' than the same people while in their own country. Not sure how this will translate wrt globalization, but I will not be surprised if the trend to remain 'distinct' will grow stronger the more borders between nations crumble. Historical examples abound (Basks, Irish, Scots, to name just a few.)

Take Koreans for example, since this seems to be the underlying trend here. Are they any less proud to be 'Koreans' now than 20 years ago? Or 50 years ago? Will they be any less proud in 10 or 20 years? Will they stop referring to themselves as 'Koreans' and becoming generic 'World Citizens'? Will they always cultivate their specific uniqueness and culture or will they switch to Esperanto and make BigMac their national cousine? Will they want to have their own Baduk Association, or will they be happy for it to be silently absorbed into some Global Umbrella?

Time will tell, I guess.

How do you feel about your nationality in this light?

[richardamullens]

Agree. Lets have a reasonable debate, free from impoliteness and from arguments of a dubious nature, shall we?

ok we will after all be meeting in Lunteren.

Ah, you're going to Zomergo? Good! We'll definitely meet there, then

Yes, I'm looking forward to the Zomergo. It was great last year in Texel and though I will miss the sea I'm sure there will be compensations.

[Bantari]

I think most of the controversy isn't over the idea of a champion, but the idea that the tournament games are combining two tournaments - the EC and the Open. As a result, the Koreans are potentially not getting equivalent chances of winning at the top (supergroup restrictions to ensure enough EU vs EU players to award EC title in a way considered "fair"), and are voting with their feet. Essentially, through aiming to get 1 important priority (EU vs EU games), another priority (top player attendance) is being lost.

I suspect if there were two tournaments - the open, and a totally separate closed European Championship, none of this citizenship discussion would matter so much.

I feel exactly the same!
I also feel that, for that reason, the discussion should not be about philosophy and who needs who most, but about concrete ways to organize and fund such a separate Closed Championship. If it was possible to organize one, I think it would be awesome!

[Magicwand]

if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.

So basically you are against any closed championship in any sport?

if there is Brtish Closed golf.. i wouldnt waste my time watching the game and i am not the only one.

[topazg]

I feel exactly the same!
I also feel that, for that reason, the discussion should not be about philosophy and who needs who most, but about concrete ways to organize and fund such a separate Closed Championship. If it was possible to organize one, I think it would be awesome!

I feel exactly the same too

[deja]

As for the 'global village' argument... I am not sure if you ever spent time around any kind of minority groups, but my experience tells me that the stronger the push from the outside to abandon one's culture and roots (and thus - uniqueness), the stronger the resistance. I have known emigrant groups in foreign countries placing a much stronger value on their 'uniqueness' than the same people while in their own country. Not sure how this will translate wrt globalization, but I will not be surprised if the trend to remain 'distinct' will grow stronger the more borders between nations crumble. Historical examples abound (Basks, Irish, Scots, to name just a few.)

Take Koreans for example, since this seems to be the underlying trend here. Are they any less proud to be 'Koreans' now than 20 years ago? Or 50 years ago? Will they be any less proud in 10 or 20 years? Will they stop referring to themselves as 'Koreans' and becoming generic 'World Citizens'? Will they always cultivate their specific uniqueness and culture or will they switch to Esperanto and make BigMac their national cousine? Will they want to have their own Baduk Association, or will they be happy for it to be silently absorbed into some Global Umbrella?

The irony here seems to be rather thick. Europeans claiming minority status sort of stretches credulity a bit, but I guess that makes sense from a latter-day occidental point of view. Normative arguments about what ought to be the case given certain cultural sensitivities seem extremely misplaced in this context. Honestly, using the cultural-invasion card here is just bad form. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but in this part of the hemisphere I think it would be best to considered ourselves as guests rather than hosts when it comes to this wonderful game.

How does it feel having the shoe on the other foot?

[Bantari]

As for the 'global village' argument... I am not sure if you ever spent time around any kind of minority groups, but my experience tells me that the stronger the push from the outside to abandon one's culture and roots (and thus - uniqueness), the stronger the resistance. I have known emigrant groups in foreign countries placing a much stronger value on their 'uniqueness' than the same people while in their own country. Not sure how this will translate wrt globalization, but I will not be surprised if the trend to remain 'distinct' will grow stronger the more borders between nations crumble. Historical examples abound (Basks, Irish, Scots, to name just a few.)

Take Koreans for example, since this seems to be the underlying trend here. Are they any less proud to be 'Koreans' now than 20 years ago? Or 50 years ago? Will they be any less proud in 10 or 20 years? Will they stop referring to themselves as 'Koreans' and becoming generic 'World Citizens'? Will they always cultivate their specific uniqueness and culture or will they switch to Esperanto and make BigMac their national cousine? Will they want to have their own Baduk Association, or will they be happy for it to be silently absorbed into some Global Umbrella?

The irony here seems to be rather thick. Europeans claiming minority status sort of stretches credulity a bit, but I guess that makes sense from a latter-day occidental point of view. Normative arguments about what ought to be the case given certain cultural sensitivities seem extremely misplaced in this context. Honestly, using the cultural-invasion card here is just bad form. Forgive me for being presumptuous, but in this part of the hemisphere I think it would be best to considered ourselves as guests rather than hosts when it comes to this wonderful game.

How does it feel having the shoe on the other foot?

I am ambifootuous... if that's even a word.
Sometimes I even wear shoes on my hands... just for the heck.
So you can't intimidate me!

Seriously - some thoughts:
1) No irony was intended in that particular post.
2) Europeans ARE a minority where world population is concerned. And certainly where Go population is concerned. The goal is to change this, so lets not get locked into an inferiority complex and/or a submissive mindset.
3) Cultural uniqueness and the fear of losing it is not necessarily restricted to minorities. America and the illegal immigration is a good example here.
4) I will have hard time considering myself a 'guest' on my own continent and in my own tournaments. So being submissive is out. Being polite but confident is much better in my book. People don't tend to respect people who don't respect themselves.
5) And Finally: I have not opened this particular door. I just peaked what might lie behind. Feel free to have a different opinion, as I assume you do.

PS... and here is your shoe back. Its too small for me.

[deja]

I am ambifootuous... if that's even a word.
Sometimes I even wear shoes on my hands... just for the heck.
So you can't intimidate me!

Seriously - some thoughts:
1) No irony was intended in that particular post.
2) Europeans ARE a minority where world population is concerned. And certainly where Go population is concerned. The goal is to change this, so lets not get locked into an inferiority complex and/or a submissive mindset.
3) Cultural uniqueness and the fear of losing it is not necessarily restricted to minorities. America and the illegal immigration is a good example here.
4) I will have hard time considering myself a 'guest' on my own continent and in my own tournaments. So being submissive is out. Being polite but confident is much better in my book. People don't tend to respect people who don't respect themselves.
5) And Finally: I have not opened this particular door. I just peaked what might lie behind. Feel free to have a different opinion, as I assume you do.

PS... and here is your shoe back. Its too small for me.

No intimidation intended, but I like your new word - ambifootuous.

In response:
1) It doesn't need to be intended. it's seems ironic nonetheless, intimidation notwithstanding.
2) Yes, we all are depending on how you parse ethnicity. Nevertheless, the goal is decidedly not to come out on top regarding ethnicity, nationality or any other demographic identifier. I find it odd that a game that originated in East Asia, has been a part of East Asian culture for thousands of years, and has only recently been introduced to the West, is now being used as cultural capital against the very people who introduced us to this amazing game in the first place. Again, how colonial of us!
3) See above.
4) I would give almost anything to be considered a guest of a CJK host anywhere in this universe. Please, I'll even wash your windows and take out your garbage. I'm the guy in downtown Seoul standing on the corner with the cardboard sign – "Will work for Baduk"
5) Differences of opinion are what make this whole thing interesting and fun. I couldn't stand it if everyone had the same opinion as me - talk about purgatory!

PSS… Ok, big foot

[RobertJasiek]

The West needs to catch up with East and there's no other path than to acknowledge the disparity and work toward competing against the best of the best.

Sure. But this does not mean at all that Europe might not have a European-only European Championship.

[tj86430]

if you segrigate by geographical area then you are discriminating against some group.

So basically you are against any closed championship in any sport?

if there is Brtish Closed golf.. i wouldnt waste my time watching the game and i am not the only one.

I don't know, and its not important for this argument. I'm sure you wouldn't watch my golf clubs championship either, yet one exists and it's closed to club members only. Do you object?

If you only object to closed championships that are spectator events then I find your argument even more peculiar.

[kirkmc]

Now, what about those Europeans who moved to another area of the earth and didn't keep their
European citizenship (and European passport)? They are not living in Europe, but are originating from Europe.

You don't lose your citizenship just because you don't renew your passport.

But you might have to give up your original citizenship to get citizenship of another country. Several countries do not allow double citizenships. That is a reason of choosing not to get an European one.

You're really confusing things. If you _move_ to another country, you don't have to ask for citizenship in that country. (I'm an American and have been living in France 25 years, yet I don't have French citizenship.) If you do, however, and your country of birth requires that you renounce on your citizenship (which is increasingly rare), that's a choice you make.

[kirkmc]

Youth Go Championship discriminates against older players?
Women Tournament discriminates against male players?
Hanguk Kiwon events restricted to HK members? Yuck!

yes...it is wrong to have youth or women tournament in my opinion. but who am i to say..
that is why i do not pay money to view their games. i only enjoy Pure open games where skill is the only thing that decide the outcome.

hanguk kiwon events do not put any restrictions. if you are strong enough then you may try to be korean professional. then you can enter all events. there are many foreigner who successfully earned korean 1D. they are allowed to enter the torunament if they wish.

We are talking about a tournament for the "European champion". I'm guessing, but I doubt South Korea will allow non citizens to enter tournaments for the champion of their country. Sure, foreigners can enter plenty of other tournaments, but country and regional championships are different.

[Magicwand]

So basically you are against any closed championship in any sport?

if there is Brtish Closed golf.. i wouldnt waste my time watching the game and i am not the only one.

I don't know, and its not important for this argument. I'm sure you wouldn't watch my golf clubs championship either, yet one exists and it's closed to club members only. Do you object?

If you only object to closed championships that are spectator events then I find your argument even more peculiar.

members only is fine.. because i can become a member if i want to and play. (unless you put restriction on membership which discriminate me)
i am talking about geographical restriction in go tornament which is just like a special olympic for the handycapped people which has no value in go community other than put medel on a #1 handycap and make him smile.

for the good of go community such tournament (geographically restrictede torunaments) should be stopped.

many years ago korea had a pro tournament for seniors. it was for the old timers who can not win against young and stronger 1d. well....it didnt last too long. such tournament doesnt attract spectator. it is prettymuch "lets give these hopelesses a chance for the medel". is this what you want?

[kirkmc]

i am talking about geographical restriction in go tornament which is just like a special olympic for the handycapped people which has no value in go community other than put medel on a #1 handycap and make him smile.

for the good of go community such tournament (geographically restrictede torunaments) should be stopped.

No! It does have value. It says that within the area of the tournament (city, state, country, region, etc.) this person has won and is currently the best player. This is _very_ important to show the progress of different areas regarding a sport or game, and, in countries, it stands as a benchmark for the work of the national federation. The same should be true of Europe, just as it is with the US (roughly equivalent populations). There's no reason to stop what is a very old tradition (that of holding national championships) just because you say it "has no value in the go community".

BTW, does the European Championship have any effect on who gets to play in any broader tournament? I note that in chess, the European championship is used for such purposes: "another object of this tournament is to determine a number of players who qualify for the FIDE world championship." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_I ... ampionship)

From what I understand, though, the WAGC doesn't work like this. However, to play in the WAGC, you represent your country, and I would guess that being your country's champion is part of what gets you to go to the WAGC (but I understand that it's not that simple).

[HermanHiddema]

for the good of go community such tournament (geographically restrictede torunaments) should be stopped.

Many people enjoy themed tournaments. Local players enjoy national championships, women enjoy female championships, children enjoy youth championships. Why on earth is it good for the go community to stop having events that people enjoy?