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 Post subject: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #1 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:44 am 
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I ve been practicing with CrazyStones DL on Android for a while. I am trying to improve my game and determine my rank at the same time. This was a game from ranked mode of CrazyStone. I am planning to start playing online games. I know that Crazystone ranks are weaker than actual ranks probably. On OGS, with what rank should i create an account and start practicing with real people? I would love someone to review my game, point out my mistakes, perhaps try to gauge my kyu rank?


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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #2 Posted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Rank: KGS 7 kyu
KGS: Krill
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I probably can't gauge your rank, but I can tell you that it never hurts to overestimate your rank when making a new account on a server, so I say go ahead and make a 5 kyu account! If the rank is too high, it'll quickly get bumped down and eventually you'll be playing people in even games and it's probably better to play games against stronger players and get thrashed then thrash a bunch of weaker players on your way up to the appropriate rank.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #3 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:09 pm 
Judan

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I have taken a look at your game, and there are things that you don't know that I would think that almost every (human) 5 kyu would. I am preparing a note to talk about those. There are also some things that are interesting that I think many 5 kyus don't know, and I am preparing a note on them, as well. Give me a day or two. :)

My impression is that online rating systems are not so good for beginners, because they improve too quickly for the systems to keep up with. Maybe you could join as, say, a 10 kyu and play non-rated games, changing the handicap after two wins or losses in a row, or even after every game.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #4 Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:22 pm 
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Quote:
I have taken a look at your game, and there are things that you don't know that I would think that almost every (human) 5 kyu would. I am preparing a note to talk about those. There are also some things that are interesting that I think many 5 kyus don't know, and I am preparing a note on them, as well. Give me a day or two. :)

My impression is that online rating systems are not so good for beginners, because they improve too quickly for the systems to keep up with. Maybe you could join as, say, a 10 kyu and play non-rated games, changing the handicap after two wins or losses in a row, or even after every game.


Thank you very much for the effort that you put in reviewing my game. I reviewed my own game and tried to find some mistakes. I found out that Move number 15, 27, 31, 45, 47, 79, 246 are questionable.
What i am most certain is that when i dont put in enough time to read out the whole sequence, i sometimes do pretty serious mistakes then getting killed. When i try to avoid getting into complicated situations, i usually lose by points. It feels like i ve to fight it out for every inch of territory. Will it become faster and faster if i try to make it a habit of reading out sequences every turn? Because when i watch online games, especially in blitz games, it is really hard for me to read out all situations in a given time constraint. I usually can not judge and be sure if a move is good by looking at the shape only, mostly have to read out possibilities in every situation which is time consuming.

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #5 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:51 am 
Judan

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TrueTears wrote:
Quote:
I have taken a look at your game, and there are things that you don't know that I would think that almost every (human) 5 kyu would. I am preparing a note to talk about those. There are also some things that are interesting that I think many 5 kyus don't know, and I am preparing a note on them, as well. Give me a day or two. :)

My impression is that online rating systems are not so good for beginners, because they improve too quickly for the systems to keep up with. Maybe you could join as, say, a 10 kyu and play non-rated games, changing the handicap after two wins or losses in a row, or even after every game.


Thank you very much for the effort that you put in reviewing my game. I reviewed my own game and tried to find some mistakes. I found out that Move number 15, 27, 31, 45, 47, 79, 246 are questionable.
What i am most certain is that when i dont put in enough time to read out the whole sequence, i sometimes do pretty serious mistakes then getting killed. When i try to avoid getting into complicated situations, i usually lose by points. It feels like i ve to fight it out for every inch of territory. Will it become faster and faster if i try to make it a habit of reading out sequences every turn? Because when i watch online games, especially in blitz games, it is really hard for me to read out all situations in a given time constraint. I usually can not judge and be sure if a move is good by looking at the shape only, mostly have to read out possibilities in every situation which is time consuming.


Yeah, White 246 is questionable, but if White were human, we might call it looking for a place to resign, as White is behind and that play looks to make complications.

:b15: Probably better to approach from the left side instead of the top side.

:b27: Looks premature. There are a number of good alternatives.

:b31: prepares :b33:, but :b33: gives Black difficulties. :b29: at 31 directly looks better, because White has not played :w30: yet.

:b45: saves the stone on C-10 from immediate capture and cuts off the two White stones on D-10 and E-10. It shows good fighting spirit. :)

:b47: Probably better to peek at G-07 first.

:b79: Yeah, the fight in the center looks more important.

But there is some really basic stuff that you need to learn. More mannana. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #6 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:39 pm 
Judan

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Here are some places where the level of play does not seem to me to be 5 kyu.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 259
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X a . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X . 1 . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black 259 protects the cutting point at “a”, which is good. However, it gives White two ko threats.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White ko threats
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X 1 4 3 . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X 2 X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black should simply make the solid connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Solid connection
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X 1 . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That’s an oversight, but let’s back up one move. White 258 was a blunder.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 258
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | 1 O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White simply connected, but . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White wins the three Black stones and the game
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | 2 O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | W B 1 4 . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | B B 3 . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

:w5: @ :wc:

The cut, :w1:, puts the :bc: stones in atari, and Black has no escape.

One move earlier:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 257
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X a . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | 1 X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: enables the White play at “a”.

Here is the second place.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 251
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X 1 O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O . |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black prevents the cut at 1, OC. However . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Better locally
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X 1 . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X . O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O . |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This play also prevents the cut.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc If White cuts
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X 1 . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X 2 W 3 |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X W . |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :w2: cuts, :b3: captures the three White stones.

The third place:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 195
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X 1 . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . X X . X O X O O X O O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O X O . O . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X O O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O X O . O X . , . . . |[/go]


Black protects against the double atari. But let’s back up one move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Move 194
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 1 W X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X . . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . X X . X O X O O X O O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O X O . O . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X O O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O X O . O X . , . . . |[/go]


White connects the :wc: stone. However . . .

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . 2 W X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O B 1 . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X 3 . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . X X . X O X O O X O O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O X O . O . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X O O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O X O . O X . , . . . |[/go]


:w1: makes the double atari, anyway. Now if :b2: captures the :wc: stone, :w3: ataris from above, making a large ko, which White takes first.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Simple extension
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X 1 . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | . O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | . X . X X . X O X O O X O O . . . X . |
$$ | . . X . X . X O X O . O . O X . X . . |
$$ | . . X . . X O X X O O . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O O O O O X O . O X . , . . . |[/go]


The simple extension avoids the unpleasantness. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #7 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:17 am 
Judan

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Here is another place with play below the 5 kyu level, IMO.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves 243 - 246
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | X X O X 3 . 1 . X X X O O O O X X X 4 |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . 2 O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O C O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: tries to capture White’s stones in the seki. This is not a blunder, as it is sente, but it allows White to enclose the :ec: point.

Curiously, White did not answer Black 245, but played on the right side. Perhaps White, being behind, was seeking complications.

But let’s back up to Black 237.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves 237 - 242
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X W W X W X X O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X W W W W W W X O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . 1 X X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O O X X 3 X 5 X . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X 2 X 4 X 6 . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: goes after the :wc: stones, taking away one of their dame. :w2: and :w4: threaten to cut, but :b3: and :b5: connect the Black stones. Then :w6: makes seki.

Do you see the mistake? I’ll hide the next diagram.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves 237 - 242
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X W W X W X X O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X W W W W W W X O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | X X O X . . . 5 1 X X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O O X X 3 X . X . . O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X 2 X 4 X . . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b5: should simply fill another dame. Now Black captures the :wc: stones. White can resign. :)


Where should Black play move 243?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black takes the two White stones
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O . X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X . . |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , . . . |
$$ | X X O X . . . . X X X O O O O X X X . |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . . O X X X X W W . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X 1 3 . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O 2 . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That’s good enough for a close win. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #8 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 10:24 am 
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Thank you. I will look into those right now. I should think more about ko threats. Well i knew that AI is much more weaker than actual ranks, since i estimate my rank about 10-15kyu. Also i should look into those 1st line enclosures more carefully next time. I wonder if i can improve my game by trying to get higher in ranked mode of this AI. Because it is usually hard to extract my full attention on real time online games, since always something comes up while i try to sit on computer and play a decent game :D Thanks again for putting the time.
Also, those diagrams look hard and time consuming to create by forum codes :) Do you use a tool for it?

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #9 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:15 am 
Judan

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TrueTears wrote:
Thank you. I will look into those right now. I should think more about ko threats. Well i knew that AI is much more weaker than actual ranks, since i estimate my rank about 10-15kyu. Also i should look into those 1st line enclosures more carefully next time.


I wouldn't worry too much about ranks or rating right now. Wait until you start to level off. :) But it is plain that there is some basic stuff that you need to learn.

One thing is to watch out for groups with only two dame, or for a play that leaves a group with only two dame. (That figures in three of these examples.) You already know the power of atari. But a group with only two dame is nearly in atari, unless it has two eyes, OC.

Quote:
I wonder if i can improve my game by trying to get higher in ranked mode of this AI.


Well, there is basic stuff that it does not know, and you cannot count on it to punish some of your basic errors. I don't know what is available for android, but you might consider some of the veteran programs, such as Gnu-Go or Many Faces of Go, which incorporated basic go knowledge long ago.

Quote:
Thanks again for putting the time.


De nada. :) Besides, this is actually a pretty interesting game. For instance, you did well to find Black 237. White blundered earlier by removing its own dame, but that is a blunder that a 5 kyu might make. I think that I may have found a slightly better play than Black 237, but that is a dan level question. Black 237 gives Black a big win. That's what is important. :)

Quote:
Also, those diagrams look hard and time consuming to create by forum codes :) Do you use a tool for it?


Yes. See http://senseis.xmp.net/tools/sgf2diagram.php . Also, Herman Hiddema has made a diagram builder. See forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=8124

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #10 Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:37 pm 
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I gave a try about playing online games today. I do have hard time, trying to stick to time limits. Which is more beneficial for my development? 1) Sticking to time limits no matter what, even considering the possibility of making a game losing move..? 2) Always trying to read and trying to play correct moves, even if daring to lose by timeout..?

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #11 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:43 am 
Judan

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Ko threats

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Move 267 (Black passed)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O 2 O X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In this position Black passed, allowing White to win the ko. That was no sin, since Black won the game, anyway. However, Black has some ko threats that I think should be obvious at the 5 kyu level. I count two ko threats for White and up to 6 for Black. I say up to 6 because one of the ko threats is special, and would not apply to this ko, and another I think may or may not apply, and whether it is or not involves reading, and I may have made a mistake.

First, I think that there are two obvious ko threats for each player. What do you think they are? I am hiding the ko threat diagrams.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc White ko threats
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X 4 X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X 3 O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O 2 1 . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Obvious Black ko threats.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . 4 |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O 3 |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X X X X O O X X X O 2 |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X 1 |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Note that all of these threats involve groups or stones with only two dame. :)


Next, there are two perhaps not so obvious ko threats for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black threatens larger kos
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | 3 O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | 4 . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O 1 2 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


A threat to make a larger ko, or even a threat to make a ko of the same size can be an effective ko threat. :)

Now, the second of these ko threats is deceptive.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Ko for the whole group
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O 2 O X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O 5 O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | 1 O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | 3 4 O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | a O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


OC, in the actual game White would answer this ko threat, but what happens if he does not? Black will not take the ko right away, but will extend with :b3:. Now if White fills the ko at 5, the White group is dead. So White will atari with :w4: (or "a"), and then :b5: takes the ko for the life of the whole group. :D (If Black took the ko right away, White could sacrifice one stone and make two eyes with a play at 3.)


Next is the special ko threat, on which would not apply to the ko in the game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Losing ko threat
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O . O X . X X X X O O X X X O W |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X B |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X 2 |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O 1 |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O a . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After the exchange, :bc: - :wc:, :b1: threatens to capture 5 White stones. That makes it a potential ko threat. However, after :w2: Black has sustained a local loss. White has captured two stones, and threatens to connect the :w2: stone, making two points of territory, for a local gain of 4 points. If Black captures the :w2: stone, the local loss is only 1 point. The average loss to Black is 2.5 points. Giving up 2.5 points to win a ko might be worth it. :) But not for this ko, OC. ;)


Last, here is the iffy threat for Black.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black ko threat?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | a . . . b O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . 3 . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O 2 O X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O X |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O O |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | O O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | X X X X . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After :b1: and :b3: (in either order), it looks like the corner might be seki, with each player having an eye, Black at “a” and White at “b”. Whether :b1: is a ko threat or not is a rather advanced question, I think. I will discuss it further on This'n'That: forum/viewtopic.php?p=218665#p218665 :)

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #12 Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:12 am 
Judan

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TrueTears wrote:
I gave a try about playing online games today. I do have hard time, trying to stick to time limits. Which is more beneficial for my development? 1) Sticking to time limits no matter what, even considering the possibility of making a game losing move..? 2) Always trying to read and trying to play correct moves, even if daring to lose by timeout..?


Fortunately for me, I did not face that problem when I was starting to play go. I played FTF, and my games lasted about one hour. I was a deliberate player, and maybe I would have done better to play quickly. Bruce Wilcox recommended finishing a game in 15 minutes. :shock: And there is a value to playing a game where you play a move in one to two seconds, at least occasionally. :)

I used to go to a club where the players typically took two to two and a half hours to play a game, which I felt was way too slow. A visiting 5 dan once quipped, "Why do they take so long, when they have nothing to think about?" ;) Now, it sounds like you are also a fairly deliberate player, so I think that the question is pertinent for you. What do you have to think about? Well, you came up with Black 237, which is quite a good move. My guess is that it took you some time to do so. If so, then a slow pace is probably good for you. Don't argue with success. :) OTOH, if it only took you a few seconds to come up with it, then you can play well at that pace. Save your deep deliberation for the review.

And don't forget that you can set your own time limits for online games. :)

----

A related question is that of getting into bad habits. Spending a lot of time reading out sequences with bad plays unfortunately gets you into the habit of thinking about bad plays. OTOH, making bad plays thoughtlessly is a bad habit, too.

There is one bad habit that you may be falling into, that of wishful reading. Black 257 and 193 were blunders. You assumed that White would connect in response to your atari. That was wishful reading. As it happened, White did connect, instead of punishing your mistakes. That was lucky for you in terms of winning the game, unlucky in terms of learning go. One way to avoid falling into that bad habit is to consider three replies of the opponent to each of your plays. Not that you have to read everything out, but had you done so, you would probably have seen the correct replies, instead of just the one you wanted to see. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Crazystone DL Android 5k vs me
Post #13 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:49 am 
Judan

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One more point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Moves 255 and 256
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O . |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 1 |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O 2 |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Seeing the threat of a snapback was good. However, Black can gain one point in the top right, with a sequence that even some fairly skilled players might overlook.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Black gains one point
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O 4 O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O 3 |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X 1 |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X . |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 5 |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O . |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O 2 |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black starts with the descent to the edge at T-14. After :w2: :b3: is sente, taking away the potential White point at 4. Then :b5: prevents White from making two points on the right side. The end result is one point better for Black in the top right than starting with :b5:.

Why does White play :w2:?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Big ko
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O 2 |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X 1 |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X 6 |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 5 |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O 4 |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O 3 |
$$ | X X O X X X X . X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X . O O X X X X O O 7 |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . 8 |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . . . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :w2: connects, Black throws in twice to make a big ko. Then, after :w6: takes the ko, Black has a local ko threat at :b7:. :) Black will win this ko or gain from it. Here is how I now think the ko fight should go.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Ko fight
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . 6 |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O 5 |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X X |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 1 |
$$ | . . X O O X O X X O O . O X . X X O O |
$$ | . X X O O O O O O X O . O X X , X O . |
$$ | X X O X X X X 9 X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X 8 O O X X X X O O . |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | . O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | . . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X 2 3 . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . X O O . O . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w4:, :b7:, :w10: take ko

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm11 Ko fight, continued
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . X X X X O O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X X |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 3 |
$$ | . . X . . X . X X O O . O X . X X O O |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . X O . O X X , X O . |
$$ | X X O X X X X X X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X O O O X X X X O O 8 |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | 2 O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | 1 . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X O X . . . X X X O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . X 4 5 . . . . X O O 9 W 7 0 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w16: takes ko. :b21: fills ko ( :wc: ).

After :b13: White has nothing better than the losing ko threat, :w14:. Note that :b17: is not big enough for Black to win the ko. White ignores it and wins the ko in the top right in exchange for the ko on the bottom side.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm22 The game winds down
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . O O X . . . X O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O O O X X . . . X X O O . . . O |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X . . . . X O O . O . |
$$ | . . . O O X . . . , . . X X X , O . O |
$$ | . . . O X 2 X . X X X X O O X X X O O |
$$ | O O O O O X . O X O X X X O O O O X X |
$$ | O X O X X . X O X O O X O O . O X X O |
$$ | X X X X X X X O X O . O . O X O X O 4 |
$$ | . . X . . X . X X O O . O X . X X O O |
$$ | . X X . . . . . . X O . O X X , X O 3 |
$$ | X X O X X X X X X X X O O O O X X X O |
$$ | X O O X X X X X X O O O X X X X O O O |
$$ | O . O O X O X O X O . O X . . X O . O |
$$ | O O O X O O O O O O . O O X X O O . . |
$$ | X . O X X . O O X O O X X . X O . . . |
$$ | . O O X . X O X X X O O X . . X O O . |
$$ | . O X X . X X X X O O X X X X X O . . |
$$ | O X . X . . . X X X O O X O O O 1 . . |
$$ | . X . X . . . . X O O X X X O . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Black wins the final ko. OC, neither player has to read this out to see that White should avoid the ko in the top right. :)

_________________
"Drooling Banjos"

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