who qualifies as european?

[RobertJasiek]

if you are weak german 5dan then dont even try to win because you are probably 3 stone weaker than the strong players.

Even the weak German 5 dans are probably not that weak.

[Bantari]

2) Yes, we all are depending on how you parse ethnicity. Nevertheless, the goal is decidedly not to come out on top regarding ethnicity, nationality or any other demographic identifier. I find it odd that a game that originated in East Asia, has been a part of East Asian culture for thousands of years, and has only recently been introduced to the West, is now being used as cultural capital against the very people who introduced us to this amazing game in the first place. Again, how colonial of us!

You've lost me here.
What do you mean and who indicated any such thing? Whare does Colonialism fit into all that? Nobody wants to colonize Asia, from what i can tell. Or do you mean we should let Asia colonize Europe? I am confused.

My point is that, when cultures meet, regardless of the platform of this meeting, both need to recognize and respect each other. I see no reasons for submissiveness by determining that one should always assume the host role and the other the guest role. We come to your torf, we are guests and should understand that. You show up on our turf, you are the guest. Skill in playing a game should have very little influence in that. Unless you want to use this skill as bargaining chip in a play for a stronger position, i.e. bullying.

On a personal level it would work for me like that:
If I had Go Seigen visiting me in my house, I would try to be the best host I could possibly be, but I would still be the host. I would expect him to be a very gracious guest, but still the guest. Anything else would be highly disrespectful, I think. The roles are clearly defined, and in no ways flexible. I would not be happy if he tried to usurp the host role in my own house, while forcing me play the guest. Regardless of how well he plays Go.

I think both the host and the guest have responsibilities and duties with regard to respect, hospitality, politeness, and so on.
Being a host does not imply disrespect. I think that being a host who tries to behave like a guest shows disrespect since it puts the guest in the awkward position to try to behave like the host in unfamiliar setting.

But that's all just a tangent.

4) I would give almost anything to be considered a guest of a CJK host anywhere in this universe. Please, I'll even wash your windows and take out your garbage. I'm the guy in downtown Seoul standing on the corner with the cardboard sign – "Will work for Baduk"

We all have issues.

[Javaness]

Youth championships have many sections and many prize categories. Their aim is to pamper children - give them as much encouragement as possible, because they are the next generation of players. Give them success, titles, praise, recognition, whatever is available. The same is true of women's events, and that includes pair Go. I am all for promotion of the game along these lines.

Why would we want to pamper caucasians, that sounds a bit racist to me.

The EGF is a members only club, and it has its (EGF) European Championship. Its constitution demands that it hold this Championship. This doesn't mean that the EGF should ignore the international success of the European Go Congress.

[Bantari]

Out of interest, would you feel the same way about a "White people only" tournament, provided of course that the "White" people eligible were enjoying it?
Honestly not trying to troll here, but to open up the sorts of issues closed tournaments could create.

Lol, this is really getting hairy...

Not sure how I feel about that.
We have things like 'Black Movie Awards', or 'African American Literary Awards', or 'Latin Grammy Awards', etc... and its good that we have.
But, on the other hand, try to create a 'White Grammy Award'... you'll be branded a racist, a bigot, an enemy of the people, and rot in hell.
Seems like even trying to make a tournament 'European' is a no-no.

It seems people are OK to have (racially) closed events - but this road is 'one-way' only.

[Bantari]

In our societies, we have developed criteria that we accept (women, youths, etc.), and others that we don't (skin color, religion).

There are plenty of socially acceptable events restricting by skin color.
Mind you - I am not putting any moral values in my statement, just stating a fact.

[Li Kao]

I organize tournaments regularly, and we always have prizes for people with at least a 4/5 score. And it doesn't matter who these people are, whether they're a 10k that's been stuck there for years or a 1k that's improving rapidly, they are always happy and proud to be called to the front and receive their prize and applause.

I'm not too fond of that. What score you get depends almost exclusively on the rank that you declare when you register for the tournament. At that is completely arbitrary. If I'd register at my next tournament with the same rank as I used in my previous, I'd probably go 4:1 or 5:0 without it meaning anything.

And funny how similar the problems of the go and the Starcraft community are. If you include countries like Korea foreigners would not stand a chance and the top part of the tournament would end up like all those other tournaments where only Asians compete. And I feel that in go European players are basically children when compared to certain Asian countries.

[Bantari]

Why would we want to pamper caucasians, that sounds a bit racist to me.

I agree.
But only if we agree that 'pampering Asians' in general, or 'pampering Asian visitors' in particular, is every bit as racist.
Or: we pamper them as they pamper us (regardless of who is 'them' and who is 'us'.)
One yard-stick for all.

[Joaz Banbeck]

Gentlemen,

Speaking as an admin: Although the discusion of race and racism/sexism has not reached a point where I would want to threaten to lock the thread, and nobody has said anything overtly racist or sexist, I can't see that it is going to lead to a good end. I ask that you redirect this conversation back to the original topic.

Thanks,
JB

[Bantari]

Speaking as an admin: Although the discusion of race and racism/sexism has not reached a point where I would want to threaten to lock the thread, and nobody has said anything overtly racist or sexist, I can't see that it is going to lead to a good end. I ask that you redirect this conversation back to the original topic.

Right...

[topazg]

if you are weak german 5dan then dont even try to win because you are probably 3 stone weaker than the strong players.

Even the weak German 5 dans are probably not that weak.

370 GoR points is greater than 3 stones, even at 5 dan strengths...

[RobertJasiek]

370 GoR points is greater than 3 stones, even at 5 dan strengths...

Will you ever understand that rating difference does not determine correct handicap?

[Harleqin]

I just remember the Berlin-Hamburg Supergo a few years ago, where a 5 dan, who had been ridiculed before for his rating, took out 5 opponents in succession who were all rated higher than him.

I would not take the rating too serious, not even in the middle to high dan level.

[Bantari]

That is a good argument. I'm not sure that I believe it but it sure is worth considering. On the other hand, how many European Go players don't know of Robert Jasiek?
How much more famous can you really get?

One needs to distinguish between fame and infamy.

[Magicwand]

Robert is famous?? for what??
can he beat any strong korean amatures who are strong as professional?? not in a million years!
i am pretty sure they can give him 3 stones and win easily.
i have seen them playing for money against strongest player in my go club (jong moon lee) in NY with 2 stones.
professional didnt even think and beat him. later he said "if the money goes up 3 stones is correct handycap"
Professional's name is Jimmy Cha.
and now strong korean amatures are stronger than Jimmy Cha.
and Jong Moon Lee is probably stronger than Robert.

from this deduction..i conclude robert can not even handle 3 stones.

[cyclops]

370 GoR points is greater than 3 stones, even at 5 dan strengths...

Will you ever understand that rating difference does not determine correct handicap?

I can imagine you don't like his communication style. But I like your reactions even less.