The Reign of Ke Jie

lichigo · Post by **lichigo** » Sun May 14, 2017 3:34 am

Today pretty impressive win from ke jie. The 3rd in a row. No need to worry about him .

dsatkas · Post by **dsatkas** » Sun May 14, 2017 4:01 am

It seems lately he likes to go in the 3-3 early.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue May 16, 2017 5:24 am

He's at it again, getting earlier and earlier with each round of the Chinese league!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W [2017-05-05] 19th Chinese City League A, round 4 vs Lee Donghoon 8p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , O . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . O . X . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B [2017-05-14] 19th Chinese City League A, round 5 vs Dang Yifei 9p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W [2017-05-16] 19th Chinese City League A, round 6 vs Li Qincheng 9p $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

For round 7 will we see below?!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ke Jie vs [insert victim] $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I feel like we could start a thread: Tygem troll or Ke Jie, can you spot the difference?

uPWarrior · Post by **uPWarrior** » Tue May 16, 2017 5:38 am

Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue May 16, 2017 8:13 am

uPWarrior wrote:Is there any implication to 4-4s in the opening? Are they decreasing in relative preference to e.g., 4-3?

I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are. I don't know if Ke Jie thinks these early 3-3s are the best move, or maybe he's just experimenting (perhaps preparing for the AlphaGo match). He's so strong that he could be winning these games in spite of rather than because of them. But it's very interesting that he considers them playable enough to use in serious matches (though Chinese league is a non-knockout team event so less personal cash/pride on the line than an individual tournament, it will be interesting to see if he uses them in e.g. the ENN Cup final). If you told me 2 years ago that the top pro in the world would be invading at 3-3 on move 6 in a serious tournament game because of a bot I'd have been incredulous.

uPWarrior · Post by **uPWarrior** » Tue May 16, 2017 8:34 am

Uberdude wrote:I've not noticed, but then "playing 4-4s only 55% of the time instead of 65% of the time" is far less noticeable when idling watching the latest pro games than these early 3-3s are.

Of course. Perhaps someone proficient with pattern searching software could give us figures for the number of 4-4s played in the past few months compared to pre-alphago. Maybe nothing changed.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Tue May 16, 2017 9:46 am

I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.

There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.

Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.

Shaddy · Post by **Shaddy** » Tue May 16, 2017 6:03 pm

John Fairbairn wrote:I realise it's pissing in the wind, but I say again: none of this is really new.

Here's Hayashi Yutaro playing an early 3-3 in the 1928 Oteai.

There are other examples. Here's an amusimng one (although by transposition) from 1967 between the two Fujisawas.

Zhou Lanyu played a rather stunning example against Guo Bailing around 1650.

It's the same move, but I think it's a different (and new) kind of idea. In the first example, White is planning on playing the joseki out inc. the 2nd line hane and pressing the 3-4 stone on the side Black blocks in order to reduce the influence of the wall. This idea has been around for a long time, but AlphaGo's idea is that Black will eventually owe a move on that wall, i.e. it's thin, and this, IME, is genuinely new (of course, I haven't seen nearly as many games as you have!)

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun May 21, 2017 3:48 am

Viktor Lin (6d from Austria) wrote a nice article on the EGF site about these early 3-3s, with an example from Li Zhe before Ke Jie started doing it:

[2017-04-27] 19th Chinese City League A, round 2
Li Zhe 6p (Black) vs. Li Xuanhao 6p (White) B+R

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Sun May 21, 2017 4:43 am

Viktor Lin's article is wrong. The record for the earliest to play the 3-3 in an official game is not Ke-Li Qincheng (move 6 this May), but - in both senses - Han Chong-chin vs Kim Seung-ryong on move 5 in the Maxim Cup this January.

Han too was experimenting with the new outside strategy. But his example is much more remarkable because he did it TWICE in the same game (the second case was on move 13). But he lost by 2.5.

hyperpape · Post by **hyperpape** » Tue May 23, 2017 8:58 am

What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo? Full game at viewtopic.php?p=219631#p219631.

Looking over the game, I lean towards thinking White still got what he wanted, getting lots of compensation for letting Black settle near his wall, but I'm too weak to know.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue May 23, 2017 9:40 am

hyperpape wrote:What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?

Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.

Cassandra · Post by **Cassandra** » Tue May 23, 2017 10:23 am

Uberdude wrote:Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.

It might not have been the best idea to simply copy one of another player's "typical" moves in a game against this player, not really knowing WHY (and WHEN) she chooses that move.

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:55 am

Uberdude wrote:
hyperpape wrote:What do we think of Ke Jie's early 33 invasion against AlphaGo?

Not as bad for black as we used to think the early 3-3 was, but not great for him either, nor as good as for those other times he used it against humans and then wedged and the wall wondered about its eyes. I only skipped around the Myungwan Kim stream, but I think he said he didn't like it and Ke Jie should just have played normally.

I read Viktor Lin's writeup about new ideas related to the 3-3 point (which was very well written, I might add).

One of the innovations made by AlphaGo, as I understand from the article, was the fact that AlphaGo often omits the :b9:

exchange, below, in the typical variation, which makes white stronger on the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 7 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 9 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Black has two benefits outside of getting the territory:
1.) White's wall, while influence, can still be attacked later - white hasn't been strengthened on the bottom.
2.) Black gets sente.

In the game against Ke Jie, yesterday, though, AlphaGo threw in the knight's move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 , . 6 . . . , . . . . . 2 9 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 7 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

This kind of messes up the idea that I thought Viktor was explaining.
Option 1: Black gives up sente, which is not as good.
Option 2: Like in the game, black got sente, but ended up giving white a nice shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X C X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Compared to the earlier example:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

White seems thicker and harder to attack.

Is the early 3-3 such a great move, given white's knight's move response? I guess AlphaGo played it, so maybe it thinks it's even?

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue May 23, 2017 4:08 pm

Perhaps AlphaGo has taught us that in response to an early 3-3 invasion, hane at the head of two stones is not as good as the keima.

Life In 19x19

The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie

Re: The Reign of Ke Jie