The Reign of Ke Jie

Kirby · Post by **Kirby** » Tue May 23, 2017 9:16 pm

Bill Spight wrote:Perhaps AlphaGo has taught us that in response to an early 3-3 invasion, hane at the head of two stones is not as good as the keima.

Certainly seems possible. I caught a bit of Myungwan's commentary after the fact (didn't see that part live), and he chat a little bit about the hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 1 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

He pointed out that black was not alive when white descends:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

So since that's sente for white, white can get strong there anyway, I guess. So that's the reason for the hane, it seems.

That being said, I seem to recall alphago crawling again on the second line:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O B . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Maybe the point is to make black alive without doing the hane.

I don't have a complete thought formed about this, yet, but it's certainly interesting.

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Tue May 23, 2017 10:36 pm

I think the 3-3 invasion didn't really go well with the first 3-3 move at the upper left. When AlphaGo played the early invasion, it normally has a 4-4 or 4-3 on the other corner. I understand Ke Jie's strategy was to take territory first, but two 3-3s were probably a little extreme.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Tue May 23, 2017 11:59 pm

xiayun wrote:I think the 3-3 invasion didn't really go well with the first 3-3 move at the upper left. When AlphaGo played the early invasion, it normally has a 4-4 or 4-3 on the other corner. I understand Ke Jie's strategy was to take territory first, but two 3-3s were probably a little extreme.

Actually, I think it is the adjacent corners rather than opposite corner that have more bearing on the merits of the early 3-3 invasion of a bare 4-4 (one with no extensions). If we look at when Master played it, there are strong (or reasonably strong) stones (marked) in those areas, which act to somewhat mitigate the influence of the resulting white wall (not hugely significant, but did Master only 3-3 invade as black?). Michael Redmond pointed this out in his review of the Gu Zihao game below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Master #36 vs Gu Zihao $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . O O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . O X O O X . O X . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . O O X X . . O . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . # . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . # . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

In this game the top left approach stone was played before the 3-3 and isn't exactly strong, but Master uses its sente after the 3-3 to then settle it with attach at a. The approach timing before the 3-3 can be seen as a probe: if played after the 3-3 white is likely to kick to attack more strongly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Master #32 vs Kim Junh-hyun(?) $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . a O . . . . . , X . . X . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . # . . . . . . . . . . O O . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . # . , X . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But Ke Jie's 3-3 invasion doesn't share these properties: he has a strong shimari in the upper right but it's rather far away and pointing the wrong direction (would be better at a), and the lower left there is no black presence but a white high big shimari which which works better with the resulting wall, and also makes a wedge have less space to invade.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go][go]$$B Ke Jie vs AlphaGo game 1 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . a . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . O . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Surely Ke Jie will have studied these positions deeply, so I do find his 3-3 surprising. Maybe he just wanted to look cool and give a nice story, or wanted AlphaGo to teach him how to deal with an early 3-3 (based on this 1 game the answer could be one-point jump rather than hane), but 'wasting' such a big match to do so (rather than one of the Master games) is odd.

pookpooi · Post by **pookpooi** » Mon May 29, 2017 9:32 am

Ke Jie win at first round of LG Cup had a little bit of background story

Apparently, he drank wine for 9 hours! Starting from 6 pm to 3 am, and plane to South Korea depart at 6 am, so only 2 hours of sleep!
He said he usually doesn't drink, but this time, he was accompanied by big brother 'Gu Li', some senior players (I guess Nie Weiping?), and surprisingly also by some of DeepMind's people. In his dream he won against AlphaGo, but in reality he wake up and beat Weon Seongjin.

source: http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/realtime/ ... 9/56759228

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 31, 2017 12:31 am

And he won his 2nd round game too against Kang Dongyun 9d. He played his own 3-3 and then invaded Kang's 4-4 on move 6 and they played the same sequence as Ke vs AlphaGo game 1. Soon after he made the same cut in the wall and the fight spread across the board.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Ke Jie (white) vs Kang Dongyun, 22nd LG cup round 2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm7 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 6 . . . 8 . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 2 O 7 . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 1 0 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm17 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . 3 X O O O X 4 | $$ | . . . , . 8 . . . , . . . 2 X X X O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . 0 1 . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . 9 . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Wed May 31, 2017 10:34 am

Ke Jie will play Shin Jinseo next in the quarterfinal (on 11/11).

lichigo · Post by **lichigo** » Wed May 31, 2017 6:39 pm

Sin jinseo said many times that he is waiting for the match against Ke jie. Sin is actually number 2 in Korea and got some national titles so he is hungry about wins in big tournaments .

pookpooi · Post by **pookpooi** » Wed May 31, 2017 6:54 pm

A little bit sad that winning international tournament doesn't grant exemption from military conscription anymore as Korean baduk association reorganize itself from art to sport and only winning Asian game and Olympic games counted for receiving the privilege. Park Jungwhan is the last person to do so.

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:03 am

No rest for Ke Jie, as he will be on the road for the first Go Rally Racing tournament. It will span two weeks and travel from Chengdong all the way to the base of Mount Everest. 6 players are divided into two groups and will play 2 matches each against each other, with the group winners playing the final match at the high altitude.

Group A: Ke Jie, Chen Yaoye, Gu Li
Group B: Mi Yutin, Tuo Jiaxi, Zhou Ruiyang

EDIT: Ke Jie won the first game against Yaoye.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 4:21 am

Strange tournament, is there some racing element to the playing, e.g. the time you use on the clock playing Go is added to your drivers racing time?

Ke Jie also beat Gu Li. And Tuo Jiaxi beat Zhou Ruiyang.

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 10:09 am

Uberdude wrote:Strange tournament, is there some racing element to the playing, e.g. the time you use on the clock playing Go is added to your drivers racing time?

Seems the racing part is just for fun. Don't know how tired they'll be afterward though, given MLILY Cup is right around the corner and all of them except for Gu Li will be participating.

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:18 am

Ke Jie beat Chen Yaoye again to win the group with a game to spare. Same happened to Tuo Jiaxi in the other group. They will play for the prize of 2m RMB (~$300K).

wolfking · Post by **wolfking** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:30 am

Uberdude wrote:Strange tournament, is there some racing element to the playing, e.g. the time you use on the clock playing Go is added to your drivers racing time?

It is a strange tournament. The racing part is mostly for fun and for show. It comes into play only when there is a tie in the Go results and the racing score will be used as a tie breaker.

Each player is paired with a female race car driver. The player serve as the co-driver and need to write and read pacenotes to his parter. The rallying is divided into 13 stages with emphasis on precise time control. Each group starts out with 100 points and any mistake during the race will cause a deduction in points.

Hidden below is a photo of Ke Jie with his partner the race car driver Hu Die.

xiayun · Post by **xiayun** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:32 pm

Ke Jie won the tournament and remains undefeated since the AlphaGo matches.

pookpooi · Post by **pookpooi** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:08 pm

xiayun wrote:Ke Jie won the tournament and remains undefeated since the AlphaGo matches.

His rating in gorating also reaches a new high. So maybe this is the after effects of playing against AlphaGo LoL.

Life In 19x19

The Reign of Ke Jie

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