Game with the two boys this morning. They offered 40 reverse komi. with that, I think I would have won if I had saved the lower center group and reduced the center rather than the side.
JG journal and family rivalry games
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
J1 and J2 (my sons) went through a rating examination this weekend in Bangkok and passed the 7kyu and 5kyu rating tests, respectively. They are not that strong on KGS, so it is hard to tell the accuracy of the tests. In these tests, the examinee plays against dan level players, taking handicap stones according to the kyu level they are trying to pass. One clear bias is that the method of the test favors players who have particularly practiced playing black with handicap stones (as the younger J who passed 5 kyu has done).
Here is our game from yesterday morning. I note that I used a lot of time and was quickly under time pressure:
Here is our game from yesterday morning. I note that I used a lot of time and was quickly under time pressure:
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
A game from last week at the Cambridge Public Library:
At this point, I have a lot of games to review and not much time to do so.
At this point, I have a lot of games to review and not much time to do so.
- Attachments
-
- josh whit 20170603.sgf
- (2.05 KiB) Downloaded 1458 times
-
BlindGroup
- Lives in gote
- Posts: 388
- Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:27 pm
- GD Posts: 0
- IGS: 4k
- Universal go server handle: BlindGroup
- Has thanked: 295 times
- Been thanked: 64 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Here is a review of your previous game. I was a bit slow to post this because I'm a bit less certain of my comments in this one. That said, I think you played much better than in the last game I reviewed!
As one father to another, however, I think you're letting your kids push you around a bit too much!
A few general comments:
1. I think you might benefit from getting a joseki dictionary or maybe even better a basic book on josekis. In both this game (lower left corner) and the last, you're getting pushed around in the corners a bit, and a basic book (something like 38 Basic Josekis by Kosugi and Davis) would explain the key corner sequences. Then if you end up with a unequal outcome in the corner, you can look up the sequence and see what went wrong.
2. This is something that a stronger player than I might be in a better position to evaluate, but I wonder if you might benefit in the short-run from changing your general strategy a bit. In both this game and the last one, you give your kids territory on the side in exchange for center influence. In principle, these exchanges may be fair for sufficiently strong players. However, using central influence properly is hard. At the very least, you need to be able to make sure that your walls have sufficiently good shape to be defensible, but it can also involve much higher level techniques like choosing the right direction of play and how to use a wall to do things like threaten/kill a group. You'll have to learn all of this eventually, but for now, if you fought for a bit more side territory and didn't readily give up territory for fourth line stones, you'd have a better shot. I've tried to note where this happens and suggest alternatives in my comments.
As one father to another, however, I think you're letting your kids push you around a bit too much!
A few general comments:
1. I think you might benefit from getting a joseki dictionary or maybe even better a basic book on josekis. In both this game (lower left corner) and the last, you're getting pushed around in the corners a bit, and a basic book (something like 38 Basic Josekis by Kosugi and Davis) would explain the key corner sequences. Then if you end up with a unequal outcome in the corner, you can look up the sequence and see what went wrong.
2. This is something that a stronger player than I might be in a better position to evaluate, but I wonder if you might benefit in the short-run from changing your general strategy a bit. In both this game and the last one, you give your kids territory on the side in exchange for center influence. In principle, these exchanges may be fair for sufficiently strong players. However, using central influence properly is hard. At the very least, you need to be able to make sure that your walls have sufficiently good shape to be defensible, but it can also involve much higher level techniques like choosing the right direction of play and how to use a wall to do things like threaten/kill a group. You'll have to learn all of this eventually, but for now, if you fought for a bit more side territory and didn't readily give up territory for fourth line stones, you'd have a better shot. I've tried to note where this happens and suggest alternatives in my comments.
- Attachments
-
- 2017-06-05 L19 jgr314.sgf
- (10.67 KiB) Downloaded 1425 times
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
A game today with a strange ending. Unfortunately, I don't remember that much of the game, so this is just the beginning. From this, somehow, I managed to save my upper left side group while reducing black's upper left corner and protect a large territory in the bottom right corner. At the same time, black managed to build up the upper right corner by forming a wall more or less on the 13th line.
The strange part was that I had some stones, from an earlier fight, that were easily killable (I had previously abandoned them as dead) above part of this wall. Black made a mistake and tenukied in the lower left corner, allowing me to kill a section of the wall and massively invade this territory. I was stunned at the time of the move because it seemed obvious the section of wall was threatened, there were several easy ways to defend, and the tenuki move was pretty clearly gote. Black resigned soon after.
The strange part was that I had some stones, from an earlier fight, that were easily killable (I had previously abandoned them as dead) above part of this wall. Black made a mistake and tenukied in the lower left corner, allowing me to kill a section of the wall and massively invade this territory. I was stunned at the time of the move because it seemed obvious the section of wall was threatened, there were several easy ways to defend, and the tenuki move was pretty clearly gote. Black resigned soon after.
- Attachments
-
- CPL game 18 jun 2017.sgf
- (537 Bytes) Downloaded 1444 times
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
Thanks @BlindGroup. I need to get some sleep and will look at your comments in the morning. I appreciate all go and parenting advice!
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Josh,
Maybe R5 first.
( Maybe interesting to study B7 variations. )
B8. "Sacrifice 2." In the game, if you atari at E8, B can remove from the board.
But if you drop to B8 first, and atari at E8, B cannot remove the 2 W stones from the board! B must connect at C7. Your two W stones remain on the board, ready to be re-activated should the occasion arises.
Once a stone is taken off the board, it has zero aji left. Huge difference.
Remember B cannot get this very clean result, very good aji with one move, if you had dropped once at .
Remember if you had dropped once at ,
then you could've atari'ed at E8 in sente
(the 2 W stones staying on the board), and still play E11.
Slow.
Very big.
Before this descend (local big move),
did you first double check that you can handle
E3 ?
When B has massive power nearby, you must be very careful.
Big. You have to watch out for your group.
Slow, and good exchange for B. Don't do it now.
Maybe good to take care of your group (starting with D13, etc.)
Maybe R5 first. ( Maybe interesting to study B7 variations. ) B8. "Sacrifice 2." In the game, if you atari at E8, B can remove from the board.But if you drop to B8 first, and atari at E8, B cannot remove the 2 W stones from the board! B must connect at C7. Your two W stones remain on the board, ready to be re-activated should the occasion arises.
Once a stone is taken off the board, it has zero aji left. Huge difference.
Remember B cannot get this very clean result, very good aji with one move, if you had dropped once at . Remember if you had dropped once at ,then you could've atari'ed at E8 in sente
(the 2 W stones staying on the board), and still play E11.
Slow. Very big. Before this descend (local big move),did you first double check that you can handle
E3 ?When B has massive power nearby, you must be very careful.
Big. You have to watch out for your group. Slow, and good exchange for B. Don't do it now.Maybe good to take care of your group (starting with D13, etc.)
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
@BlindGroup
1. I agree. Mostly, I study by doing life and death problems and watching lectures from Dwyin and Nick Sibicky about direction of play and higher level strategy than joseki or fuseki sequences. The boys have been doing more of a mix, but have certainly had a lot of joseki in their studies.
2. This is something with which I'm struggling. I am trying to find a balance between establishing territory on the corners and sides, but not get shut out of the center. In the last couple of face-to-face games (not recorded, I think) my opponents were able to get a lot of points from territory in the center. In this game, when I chose to go for a wall and center influence on the bottom side, I thought, erroneously, that I would get territory and points in both right corners. I didn't realize I was still completely vulnerable to 3-3 invasion, especially after I had the stone at Q14 (which probably should have been played at R14 as you commented).
FWIW, Kogo's only offers C as a continuation.
perhaps I should play elsewhere? Maybe a corner enclosure like O3 on the idea that is still close enough to help the J4 stone.
in your continuation, I think If white cuts at B, then black d4, white f5, black e5 which then threatens to push through d5, so white has two local things to deal with and probably ok for black.
yep, greedily thinking I can get the whole side!
The sgf doesn't show the clock. I forget how much time we were using, I think it was 10min main time, + 5x0:30. As I noted, I burned through the main time quickly and then was in a rush for much of the game. My kids generously gave me +40 reverse komi. With that, I think I would have won if I'd strengthened the L4 wall of stones and not let them get killed. There were many opportunities, but I saved smaller groups or areas instead. I guess I didn't realize how weak that group was.
In any case, I clearly didn't make good use of it for any offensive purpose, so your point questioning the value of central influence is clear!
Again, thanks for the comments.
1. I agree. Mostly, I study by doing life and death problems and watching lectures from Dwyin and Nick Sibicky about direction of play and higher level strategy than joseki or fuseki sequences. The boys have been doing more of a mix, but have certainly had a lot of joseki in their studies.
2. This is something with which I'm struggling. I am trying to find a balance between establishing territory on the corners and sides, but not get shut out of the center. In the last couple of face-to-face games (not recorded, I think) my opponents were able to get a lot of points from territory in the center. In this game, when I chose to go for a wall and center influence on the bottom side, I thought, erroneously, that I would get territory and points in both right corners. I didn't realize I was still completely vulnerable to 3-3 invasion, especially after I had the stone at Q14 (which probably should have been played at R14 as you commented).
FWIW, Kogo's only offers C as a continuation. perhaps I should play elsewhere? Maybe a corner enclosure like O3 on the idea that is still close enough to help the J4 stone. in your continuation, I think If white cuts at B, then black d4, white f5, black e5 which then threatens to push through d5, so white has two local things to deal with and probably ok for black. yep, greedily thinking I can get the whole side!The sgf doesn't show the clock. I forget how much time we were using, I think it was 10min main time, + 5x0:30. As I noted, I burned through the main time quickly and then was in a rush for much of the game. My kids generously gave me +40 reverse komi. With that, I think I would have won if I'd strengthened the L4 wall of stones and not let them get killed. There were many opportunities, but I saved smaller groups or areas instead. I guess I didn't realize how weak that group was.
In any case, I clearly didn't make good use of it for any offensive purpose, so your point questioning the value of central influence is clear!
Again, thanks for the comments.
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
@EdLee, thanks!
At I don't understand. You're saying I should have played c2 instead?
I don't recall whether I analyzed black at e3, but it seems like I can deal with it pretty easily (after B3) by cutting off that stone at e4. I'm probably not being creative enough in possible moves for black, but variations I've looked at are hard for black to gain many liberties and I can stay ahead in capture races.
other points:
I hadn't seen
before and didn't know that 
was a normal move. On review, we both thought making a base at R11 might be better. I wonder what I would have come up with if black had continued with a joseki there.
Again, I didn't realize that
was a normal play and, on review, we thought maybe it should have been at c9. When black attached at d8, I wished I'd had a bit more separation with the d6 stone to attack more aggressively. Thanks for b7 idea, I didn't consider that.
What about C7? on review, that seems ok, too. In particular, since D9 has space to extend either up or to the center, it seems hard for black to attack that side, get something interesting facing the center, and keep the c9 cutting stone alive.
makes a lot of sense! That's a beautiful part of go: when some stones that deserve to be dead come back to haunt the opposing player. I know this is pretty elementary, but I now see how this links with the question of whether a group of stones are solidly connected or not. So, when the opponent's stones aren't solidly connected, a play to create aji is worth considering.
as you suggested with R5 back at move 16, I had been itching to play back in that corner for a while. Not sure if this was premature b/c left side group wasn't really safe yet.
At
I don't understand. You're saying I should have played c2 instead?I don't recall whether I analyzed black at e3, but it seems like I can deal with it pretty easily (after B3) by cutting off that stone at e4. I'm probably not being creative enough in possible moves for black, but variations I've looked at are hard for black to gain many liberties and I can stay ahead in capture races.
other points:
I hadn't seen
before and didn't know that was a normal move. On review, we both thought making a base at R11 might be better. I wonder what I would have come up with if black had continued with a joseki there.Again, I didn't realize that
was a normal play and, on review, we thought maybe it should have been at c9. When black attached at d8, I wished I'd had a bit more separation with the d6 stone to attack more aggressively. Thanks for b7 idea, I didn't consider that.What about C7? on review, that seems ok, too. In particular, since D9 has space to extend either up or to the center, it seems hard for black to attack that side, get something interesting facing the center, and keep the c9 cutting stone alive.
makes a lot of sense! That's a beautiful part of go: when some stones that deserve to be dead come back to haunt the opposing player. I know this is pretty elementary, but I now see how this links with the question of whether a group of stones are solidly connected or not. So, when the opponent's stones aren't solidly connected, a play to create aji is worth considering. as you suggested with R5 back at move 16, I had been itching to play back in that corner for a while. Not sure if this was premature b/c left side group wasn't really safe yet.-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Josh, you're welcome.
(C2 is strange shape; connect directly at D3 is better.)
No. In general, I'm a literalist: had I meant C2, I would've said it.At
(C2 is strange shape; connect directly at D3 is better.)
I meant literally what I said: if you had read it out, good; just be careful when B is very strong nearby.I don't recall whether I analyzed black at e3, but it seems like I can deal with it pretty easily (after B3) by cutting off that stone at e4.
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re:
EdLee wrote:Hi Josh,Since you have more than one game up for review, and more than one reviewer,jgr314 wrote:other points:
I hadn't seen
Again, I didn't realize that
What about C7? on review, that seems ok...
things can get confusing.
I didn't comment on
Sorry for the confusion. I know you didn't comment on those moves, those were just my own notes from the same game. Since you didn't mention them, I concluded that they were normal/ok moves and it was interesting to me that our post-game review focused on those instead of the things you flagged.
-
jgr314
- Dies in gote
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:17 am
- Rank: ddk
- GD Posts: 0
- KGS: jgr314
- Location: Boston
- Has thanked: 7 times
- Been thanked: 3 times
Re: JG journal and family rivalry games
A game from this weekend with our own comments:
We didn't have time for an immediate post-game review, so we turned it into a letter writing exercise. Here is the exchange:
Jate: Dear Daddy, thank you for playing GO with me. Your move 82 was great. I didn't expect that you would play such moves because it pushes into my territory. When I played 83, you kept pushing into my territory with 84. One move I would do differently is 14. I would have played at 102 (Q11) because move 14 leaves the group on the upper right weak. Love, Jate
Note: I think this failure to finish the joseki was because I had misunderstood/remembered a comment from an earlier game about a side move extending from a similar joseki. I will go back and look at the differences.
My reply: Dear Jate, what do you think I should have done differently with my 3-3 corner invasion? That didn't work at all and left you with a lot of territory around the 17 stone (J17).
Jate: Dear Daddy, Regarding your question about your 3-3 invasion, it was fine because it lives with ko, but move 70 should have been at 73. Then I would play under 70 and then you play 70, so it is ko, but you could play 64 @ 65 like in the joseki Jin taught you. Love, jate
This is what he is saying:
Me: Dear Jate, Interesting. What do you think would have been the best way to invade or reduce your territory around J17?
Jate: Dear Daddy, There are many places to invade or reduce my territory, which are: F17, G17, F16, G16, J17, J16 and L16. And the best time to invade my territory is move 18. Because if you don't invade, I will get a big territory. But actually you should invade my territory with move 16 at J17. Love, Jate
We didn't have time for an immediate post-game review, so we turned it into a letter writing exercise. Here is the exchange:
Jate: Dear Daddy, thank you for playing GO with me. Your move 82 was great. I didn't expect that you would play such moves because it pushes into my territory. When I played 83, you kept pushing into my territory with 84. One move I would do differently is 14. I would have played at 102 (Q11) because move 14 leaves the group on the upper right weak. Love, Jate
Note: I think this failure to finish the joseki was because I had misunderstood/remembered a comment from an earlier game about a side move extending from a similar joseki. I will go back and look at the differences.
My reply: Dear Jate, what do you think I should have done differently with my 3-3 corner invasion? That didn't work at all and left you with a lot of territory around the 17 stone (J17).
Jate: Dear Daddy, Regarding your question about your 3-3 invasion, it was fine because it lives with ko, but move 70 should have been at 73. Then I would play under 70 and then you play 70, so it is ko, but you could play 64 @ 65 like in the joseki Jin taught you. Love, jate
This is what he is saying:
Me: Dear Jate, Interesting. What do you think would have been the best way to invade or reduce your territory around J17?
Jate: Dear Daddy, There are many places to invade or reduce my territory, which are: F17, G17, F16, G16, J17, J16 and L16. And the best time to invade my territory is move 18. Because if you don't invade, I will get a big territory. But actually you should invade my territory with move 16 at J17. Love, Jate
- Attachments
-
- jgr314-jinjate.sgf
- (5.88 KiB) Downloaded 1052 times
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
-
EdLee
- Honinbo
- Posts: 8859
- Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
- GD Posts: 312
- Location: Santa Barbara, CA
- Has thanked: 349 times
- Been thanked: 2070 times
Hi Josh,
If you make the exchange 
- 
,
then it's a good idea to follow-up afterwards ( R11 is an option, like ).
Otherwise, play directly, without the exchange - .
Without the exchange - , your 
is much lighter, easier to deal with. After the exchange - , you've committed a lot more; now you need to take care of it.
B makes you pay for your tenuki.
Q14 is a natural follow-up.
Helps B and hurts your own corner. J4 is a natural move.
M3 is a natural move.
Take in sente.
After W takes, if B still drops to N1, would you then spend a move at M1 ? 
Feels slow.
Life, but feels slow. K6, etc.
Follow-itis. Very slow. C17 neighborhood is huge.
Slow, timid. J10 a local candidate.
Slow.
Slow.
A normal sequence:
B missed a kill:
The game move fails:
( This corner is worth this game, for both B and W. )
( ...skipping... )
127 Q2.
If you make the exchange - ,then it's a good idea to follow-up afterwards ( R11 is an option, like
).Otherwise, play
directly, without the exchange - .Without the exchange
- , your is much lighter, easier to deal with. After the exchange - , you've committed a lot more; now you need to take care of it.Yes. It'd be good if you can identify the other position; then we can look at the difference(s).One move I would do differently is 14. I would have played at 102 (Q11) because move 14 leaves the group on the upper right weak.
B makes you pay for your tenuki. Q14 is a natural follow-up. Helps B and hurts your own corner. J4 is a natural move. M3 is a natural move. Take in sente.After W takes, if B still drops to N1, would you then spend a move at M1 ?
But that's the shape in the game. Feels slow. Life, but feels slow. K6, etc. Follow-itis. Very slow. C17 neighborhood is huge. Slow, timid. J10 a local candidate. Slow. Slow. A normal sequence: B missed a kill:The game move
fails:( This corner is worth this game, for both B and W. )
( ...skipping... )
127 Q2.