Determining big komi

[Jonas]

I believe it is not possible to trade handistones with komi.

Obviously it is possible since people are doing it.
If you have some point, and not only was saying the first thing that got into your head, please expound.

Note that Jonas' location is Germany, so English is probably not his native language. I don't think we can take that statement literally in English. I think that he means that it is not possible with a simple ratio.

Sry I hadn't much time when I wrote my posting You're right, my choice of words wasnt the best.
I think it is very problematic to allocate a certain komi value to a handicap stone, because (afaik) there is no reliable data available. I'm sure the value of a handicap stone differs from person to person and it would need a large-scale analysis to determine the correct values.

I've visited many go clubs in germany in the last two years and every club seems to have different "rules" when it comes to the trade handistones - komi.
F.e. my local club in Osnabrück plays with 8 Komi for each handicap stone, the results show that this (sometimes more sometimes less) fits. Another club I visit rarly is located in the Ruhrgebiet (urban center in west germany) and there a 12 point komi, decreasing every stone by 1 point, is familiar.

If take the normal handicap rules the first handicap stone reduces whites komi to 0 or 0.5, which means the first european handicapstone has a value of 6 or 6.5, an american handicap stone has a value of 7 or 7.5 etc.

Personally I find it very hard to win by more then 50 points while not killing anything super big. I've played many 5 or 6 handicap games which I won without giant-killing, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't win with more then 30 points if I play a serious game against one of my opponents, simply because my play calms down when I see that I'm leading. The other option is, that I try to kill as much as possible without thinking that I've already won the game which results in a win by more then 80 or 90 points (have tried it at my local go club), because the missing security of the handicap stones enables me to kill half of the board.

Hmmm this leads to a rather complicated discussion ^_^

[Bantari]

A few thoughts:

1) Most strong players I talk to say that the point amount by which win/lose is meaningless and says nothing about respective strength. I also think so.

2) Like with handicap, beyond certain rank-difference threshold, I don't think such considerations are meaningful. Say I can probably kill every stone on the board in an even game against a 15k for example. Same thing against every player of lower rank. Where does this leave us?

3) I can probably beat a 1d player as consistently as I can beat a 3k player in even games. And possibly by the same margins.

4) I can consistently beat one player by a different margin that I consistently beat another player of the same rank. Its a matter of personal 'style' for the lack of a better word.

5) The big difference between handi and komi is that handi has a much greater influence on determining your strategy than komi. So its hard to apply formula to convert one to the other.

6) Rank is defined by handicap, not komi, so this also presents a challenge once we agree that these two systems are not necessarily strongly related. It might be possible to devise a system based on komi instead., I dunno...

7) Even rank based on handicap can be very inexact, especially when dealing with two distinct groups of players.

8) At different levels, the size of the result is more or less random. A pro beating another pro by 20 points might mean something. A 10k beating another 10k by the same 20 points might mean nothing at all.


What does this all mean?
Well... it means that I don't have a formula, complicated or not.
It also means that I do not think finding a decent formula is possible.

Other than this, I'd give about 30 stones for each 2 levels of difference and see what happens.
As with handicap, you can add/subtract 10 or 5 points after each game depending on the result, so eventually you'll find your range against a specific opponent.

PS. Why not just play with proper handi?

[BaghwanB]

Well, then why don't we start out with this and if people want to experiment with it it can be adjusted based on experience:

W rank Komi/stone (rank difference) equivalent
30k-20k 8
19k-1k 10
1d-3d 11
4d-9d 12
1p-9p 13
4p-9p 14

Note that this is intended for 2+ stones. 1 stone (rank) seems to be handled decently by no komi.

This is based just off of W's rank since they'll be the one needing to make up the difference (change the sign however you see fit). Also based on rough estimates of "standard" equivalent in my area, Bill's pro v pro fingures above, and trying to remember what it was like with handi stones back when I was 20+k. To do this really well, you'd need to account for both W & B's rankings and the fact that lower kyu games will have many more blowout scores (100+ point wins) than higher ranks.

Comments, willing testing volunteers, mocking laughter, etc?

Bruce "Motion tabled" Young

[Bantari]

Good for you. But this also applies to handicap stones, some handle them better than others.

Yes.
As you say - nothing is perfect. This is why we need to play games rather than simply determining the result by looking at the ratings.

Because it is so important to play with stronger players. A bit of variation in the way the handicap is given, standard placement, free placement, negative komi, and so on, will hopefully results in more games being stimulating for both parties.

I am not sure if big komi or negative makes the game more 'stimulating' to stronger players. Maybe it does.

Personally, I like the idea I call 'Irish Handicap'.
It involves stronger player making some suboptimal or outright bad yet intriguing moves until he feels the game is interesting. Can be applied many times during the game. The advantages of such systems which I like are that the game can easily be taken out of the book and that the flow of the game can be adjusted multiple times if needed. What I don't like is that it all depends on the stronger player being comfortable with that and not minding potentially losing a nominally 'even' game. Also, it is very nice way to play 'teaching' games.

I play a lot of games like that, and its fun.
Its my personal invention such 'Irish Handicap' - handle with care!!