That's a good point. He played Q12 later but the position has changed by then. I didn't think of white playing it now. Black Q12 does look much stronger. Thanks!EdLee wrote:Hi BlindGroup,
This helps W fix his shape: W leans at Q12.
Probably the shared vital point is Q12.
Q12.
BlindGroup Study Journal
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BlindGroup
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Re:
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EdLee
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Knotwilg
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
The theme of the game:
You are on and off about large scale separation of groups. At several occasions you do make this your top priority: 29, 35, 47
At other occasions you don't: 25, 53, 61
A minor aspect is that local analyses and decisions are sometimes off: 37, 83, 123
At the upside, you win fights, like you say: the 77-79 combo and especially spotting the throw-in tactics at 147 !!! These are things that win games.
A minor thumbs up for your good peeps at 33, 129
You are on and off about large scale separation of groups. At several occasions you do make this your top priority: 29, 35, 47
At other occasions you don't: 25, 53, 61
A minor aspect is that local analyses and decisions are sometimes off: 37, 83, 123
At the upside, you win fights, like you say: the 77-79 combo and especially spotting the throw-in tactics at 147 !!! These are things that win games.
A minor thumbs up for your good peeps at 33, 129
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BlindGroup
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Knotwilg, Thank you!
Your right that my local judgement is at times off -- still working on that.
Comment and question:
Move 23: I see your point. I considered extending, and I saw the white 24 response you note. But misjudged the value of it. So, this is particularly good feedback to get.
Move 33: I thought the marked move below was slow arguing that white should sacrifice and extend at A. But you have a different take "it would have been a big sacrifice, because Black gets all connected this way. And then what is the purpose of A if these stones don't cut anything?"
What is the value of whites stones as cutting black's shape? I suspect that I might be judging these positions incorrectly or not seeing an opportunity that these stones provide. I'm looking at this and seeing the black group in the right middle as being alive. And from that, it seems that the only thing white would lose in the sacrifice is the related territory, which if I'm estimating correctly is in the range of 10. That seems to small to care about right now. What am I missing?
Your right that my local judgement is at times off -- still working on that.
Comment and question:
Move 23: I see your point. I considered extending, and I saw the white 24 response you note. But misjudged the value of it. So, this is particularly good feedback to get.
Move 33: I thought the marked move below was slow arguing that white should sacrifice and extend at A. But you have a different take "it would have been a big sacrifice, because Black gets all connected this way. And then what is the purpose of A if these stones don't cut anything?"
What is the value of whites stones as cutting black's shape? I suspect that I might be judging these positions incorrectly or not seeing an opportunity that these stones provide. I'm looking at this and seeing the black group in the right middle as being alive. And from that, it seems that the only thing white would lose in the sacrifice is the related territory, which if I'm estimating correctly is in the range of 10. That seems to small to care about right now. What am I missing?
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BlindGroup
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Re:
Ed, Thanks! Very helpful!EdLee wrote:Hi BlindGroup,
Maybe if you jump out and split W (I'm not sure what's best, e.g. o10),
W is busy.
R9.
e.g. M10 (re:
Not sure this is a wrong move.
How about L8 ?
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Knotwilg
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
If you don't respond to 
and let him connect, by cutting of the cutting stones at 
, then why play 
at all? What's the purpose of W2?
In this diagram, :w4 has a purpose of defending a group of stones that splits off black's middle from the corner. This is large scale separation, which needn't result in a kill but which puts a burden on black.
If you think these White stones are wasted and you can allow Black to cut & connect with and , then you should play elsewhere, for example to strengthen the other group and then 
to take a large point.
and let him connect, by cutting of the cutting stones at , then why play at all? What's the purpose of W2?In this diagram, :w4 has a purpose of defending a group of stones that splits off black's middle from the corner. This is large scale separation, which needn't result in a kill but which puts a burden on black.
If you think these White stones are wasted and you can allow Black to cut & connect with
and , then you should play elsewhere, for example to strengthen the other group and then to take a large point.
Last edited by Knotwilg on Wed Aug 23, 2017 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dfan
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
I made a similar comment in this in a recent thread, and it's something I didn't really internalize until recently: there's a huge difference between 1) a group that you can prevent your opponent from killing, and 2) a group so strong that your opponent can't really even attempt to kill it (like your right side group if it connects).BlindGroup wrote:I'm looking at this and seeing the black group in the right middle as being alive.
If you have a type 1 group, your opponent will have tons of sente endgame moves and you'll likely end up with 2-4 points of territory. Meanwhile, he will have made strength that will help with his future endgame moves. And before you even get to the endgame, if he makes a dual-purpose move that happens to threaten your group, you'll have to defend against it, and he'll profit from his other purpose.
If you have a type 2 group, anything your opponent tries to do against it is "just points". You can ignore endgame moves if you have bigger moves elsewhere. You never have to worry about dual-purpose moves that threaten it. You can use it as a base that you can reach back to when you make invasions or endgame tesujis, knowing that it's safe.
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BlindGroup
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Never seen or considered this distinction, but it makes a lot of sense. Thanks!dfan wrote:I made a similar comment in this in a recent thread, and it's something I didn't really internalize until recently: there's a huge difference between 1) a group that you can prevent your opponent from killing, and 2) a group so strong that your opponent can't really even attempt to kill it (like your right side group if it connects).
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dfan
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Ha, it turns out that my "similar comment in a recent thread" was about another one of your games. You liked that one too!
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BlindGroup
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Ah, my poor memory! Thanks for the repeat. Hopefully, it sinks in this time!dfan wrote:Ha, it turns out that my "similar comment in a recent thread" was about another one of your games. You liked that one too!
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Bill Spight
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Some comments on the opening and early middle game. 
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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BlindGroup
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Thanks, Bill! These are some great ideas. I particularly like the idea of using the elephant's eye to solicit the split and in doing so providing tighter coverage of both groups. I've been focusing on shape a bit lately in my reading and have always seen the elephant's eye described as weak because it could so easily be split. Interesting to see how the split could be advantageousBill Spight wrote:Some comments on the opening and early middle game.
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Bill Spight
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
It's funny. I don't think of it as an elephant's eye -- which it is, OC --, but as a boshi. That is, the relation to the opponent's stone is more important to me than the relation to my own stone. Except for haengma ( https://senseis.xmp.net/?Haengma ), it does not make much sense to think of shape without considering the opponent's stones. A good shape against certain opponent's stones can be bad shape against others, and vice versa.BlindGroup wrote:Thanks, Bill! These are some great ideas. I particularly like the idea of using the elephant's eye to solicit the split and in doing so providing tighter coverage of both groups. I've been focusing on shape a bit lately in my reading and have always seen the elephant's eye described as weak because it could so easily be split. Interesting to see how the split could be advantageousBill Spight wrote:Some comments on the opening and early middle game.
BTW, that sequence, boshi, kosumi, keima, occurs often in professional play, if not in actual games, at least in variations. Pros often avoid playing the kosumi.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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BlindGroup
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
This reminds me of the point that I've seen EdLee make a few times about the tiger's mouth being a good move in certain circumstances. It's interesting that so many discussions about shape definitively label both as weak when clearly the value of the shapes is a little more subtle. Even the dreaded empty triangle can be a good move, depending on the circumstances!Bill Spight wrote:Except for haengma ( https://senseis.xmp.net/?Haengma ), it does not make much sense to think of shape without considering the opponent's stones. A good shape against certain opponent's stones can be bad shape against others, and vice versa.
BTW, that sequence, boshi, kosumi, keima, occurs often in professional play, if not in actual games, at least in variations. Pros often avoid playing the kosumi.
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Bill Spight
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Re: BlindGroup Study Journal
Many discussions about shape label the tiger's mouth as weak? Hard to believe.BlindGroup wrote: This reminds me of the point that I've seen EdLee make a few times about the tiger's mouth being a good move in certain circumstances. It's interesting that so many discussions about shape definitively label both as weak when clearly the value of the shapes is a little more subtle. Even the dreaded empty triangle can be a good move, depending on the circumstances!
Fortunately, I had better books when I was starting out.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.