Assuming "psychopath" is meant as a criticism, I think that's too strong: plenty of good Go is about fighting, but yes this is an early brawl, but white started it with the cut so I wouldn't blame black (the OP) for tagging along.djhbrown wrote:the position BlindGroup discusses suggests to me that both players are playing what i call "psychopath Go" - playing with only one thought in mind: killing.
i found myself wondering how they got into such a mess, each with all their eggs in one basket.
I wouldn't call it weak (particularly at kyu level), just not as active as an approach. In a handicap game white often wants to play an active and fast development, but plodding and calm has its merits too. Also a kakari is a very standard move which black will surely be able to play a decent standard answer to, but playing something a bit more unusual might elicit a sub-optimal response. Also as a general point for handicap (or indeed even) games, you don't always want to be playing sente moves, as if finding a good answer is within your opponent's ability then you don't gain anything (though of course you can be playing bullying sente moves which do gain a bit), whereas if you play a gote move you pose a problem to your weaker opponent: "Where is the most important place on this board, and what should you play?". They will often flub this problem and play some rubbish tiny move, giving you sente to do good moves again. This is particularly true in high handicap games in the middlegame I have found, where you have given them plenty of scaring looking bits of aji to be over-cautious about.djhbrown wrote: it all goes back to white's second move (move 3), which i still think is weak because it gives away sente.
I'm sure Bill would agree that was a sensible and good move, it was your claim it was sente that was wrong.djhbrown wrote:his first move, taking the empty corner was sensible, with which even argumentative Bill might agree.
I do actually prefer to approach than wedge for white's 2nd move to be more active, but it's no big deal at 10k level. However the more general advice you are giving here that you should play a move like an approach because it is sente rather than a gote oba (big fuseki point) I disagree strongly with. There are plenty of times a gote oba is an excellent choice, and plenty of times it will be better than some approach.djhbrown wrote: taking an oba is what you do when you dont have a decent sente move, but after black sensibly took the last corner, white has 6 sente move areas to choose from (6 sides to kakari from, with several choices of kakari in each of the 6 areas).
I wasn't aware Go Seigen was a particular fan of the regular san-ren-sei, wasn't he more famous for saying he liked the diagonal one including tengen (compare to the 4-4, tengen, 3-3 he played against Shusai)djhbrown wrote: so when white threw away the initiative with K17, black had a chance to seize it.
but in playing D10 black threw his chance away too! - although Go Seigen might like his san-ren-sei, and who am i to argue with Go Seigen?
D10 is a wonderful move, as you say looks up and down left side. Something like h17 (is this the sort of sente move you want to play?) also great, but not better.djhbrown wrote: black D10 is much better than white's K17, because D10 looks both ways up and down the left side, whereas K17 is just sitting there all alone, waiting to be attacked.
Not an overplay.djhbrown wrote: but D10 is gote, so white has another chance to take sente, and this time, at move 5, he does take it... sort of... but does so with an overplay.
m17 is not a worry, even with a black stone already at h17 approach at o17 is fine (if black m17 then simple way is white o15 as sente on corner and then cover at l16). n17 2-space extension is overcautious (and liable to overconcentration). It's odd that you criticize k17 for not being sente when it's okay, but then suggest this good more sente approach is wrong. "kakari from the other side" means r14? Also good. "either corner" means c14? Dubious with d10 in place.djhbrown wrote: i've seen pros make 3 space jumps and more, but to me it doesnt look right in this position, because as well as unecessarily leaving behind a weakness at M17, black has D16, so white's chances of making much at the top are not good. therefore, it would be more prudent to make a 2-space jump, or to kakari from the other side, pincering the corner stone - either corner.
Correct, except final conclusion. If black m17 white can dodge to 3-3, extend to g17 (here I'm being cautious, f17 approach could get complex).djhbrown wrote: black 6 is sensible. it strengthens black's potential in the upper right, and thereby also weakens K17-O17, which is why O17 was an overplay.
Neither are blunders, but invading is indeed rather jealous. However, given the presence of k17 it's got some support and white may want to start a fight because he's ranked stronger. Many ways to play a handicap game.djhbrown wrote: white follows up his blunder with an even bigger blunder - a "Jealousy Go" move, trying to steal black's corner, which is going to make black strong on the outside, making K17-O17 even weaker.
k17 helps enough too, indeed white might end up thinking l17 could be too close when you descend at o18. Tenuki instead of 3-3 would indeed be good and more normal.djhbrown wrote: had K17 been at L17, entering the corner is locally feasible, but at this stage of the game, the top right corner is the smallest part of the board, so w should have turned elsewhere instead.
I presume this is a joke.djhbrown wrote: black's block at Q17 is sound. at this point, white should realise he has already made 2 blunders and gracefully resign.
but of course, not all Go players are honourable, and many carry on beserkering long after the curtain has fallen.
Something not mentioned yet is although q17 is good, p18 is a decision point: black can also play r16 rather than separating white. Usual continuation is s18 s17 r18 r11. Black allows white to connect the 3-3 to the approach, but avoids any cut and fight and settles on the right side. Normally this is a bit soft, but seeing as white already has k17 (which works well in the game fight) but after this sequence is somewhat misplaced (if you removed it from the board white would rather play it at f17 or o3 or somewhere else as top side not so interesting now) it has merit particularly if you want to avoid early fighting in a handicap game (of course fighting is fine too).
Nope, black normally continues locally. Now white will normally not invade 3-3 so early, so there won't be such big opening points up for grabs so here I wouldn't criticise a tenuki (particularly o3, which could be seen as a probe to decide how to continue at top right: if white answers at r6 then right side is lower so r15 becomes to look more attractive than s14), but local answer is good too to pressure the corner.djhbrown wrote: the sequence to white 13 is a joseki, and that's where the joseki ends; black has sente and the opportunity to build something along the bottom, or maybe to make white cry at the top.
s14 isn't yose, it's sente to kill the corner. (a) not really, there is a very real possiblity white will continue with push and cut if you tenuki; r16 is the classic kyu aji keshi here. (b) true that white q4 reduces right side black potential, but not so much to make s14 bad. Bottom side is indeed big, I like o3 for fancy probey reasons above.djhbrown wrote: but black doesn't do that - instead, he plays a yose move, blocking the right side which is doubly bad, because (a) it is aji-keshi, eliminating one of his future ko threats, and (b) because white already has Q4, black's potential territory on the right is smaller than his potential on the bottom. And because black already has R14, white's potential on the right is small too. The bottom side is bigger (more urgent) for both players.
Yes, s14 is sente to kill top right (even if white pushes at r15 and you block, then t15 kills, learn your L groups). That's why it's joseki (or at least a standard early-middle game sequence). This status does change if white pushes down at o18 and black plays o19 (rather than p19) to put more pressure on the outside 2 stones as then q19 being sente helps the corner live. The presence of an outside liberty (if black played one-point jump instead of knight's move) is also important here, you see this early 3-3 a lot in the Chinese opening these days.djhbrown wrote: so why did black play S14? what was his plan? to kill the top right??!
if the top right were killable, the joseki wouldn't be joseki.
I'd download the sgf and then directly include the file contents (edited as you wish) in sgf tags.djhbrown wrote: PS can anyone tell me how to copy an eidogo record in a post so as to use it in a reply?
