Gomoto's Fuseki Studies

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:35 pm

Ok I understand, you can not agree that the 6-3 inside approach is of the same size as the second empty 4-4 corner.

I do not like to play the same lines over and over again. I strive for creative plays as early as possible. Funny thing is that most (strong) amateurs are very fast at critisizing non orthodox plays or plays they have not seen very often before, while the pros I asked about my early approach moves (I also like to approach the 3-4 point before the empty second corner) are very encouraging when you try something creative in the opening.

I do not insist that 6-3 inside approach is of exactly the same size as the second 4-4 corner. It is just in my opinion a lot more similar in size than most people are aware of. And it is a viable move for an even game in my opinion. But we do not have to agree on this

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

If you call the 6-3 inside approach an obviously not unreasonable play you are at the starting point of my discussion. I am wondering why it has not appeared in pro games more often.

The only game I found in my database is Yang Hui 8d - Liu Xiaoguang 9d (B) 1995
(It is not a ninrensei fuseki, but a diagonal opening, but it is still the same position)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:22 pm

One related game where black is playing a similar strategy with a 6-3 approach before the second corner:

Hashimoto 8d (B) - O Meien 9d 1997 (Komi 5.5)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:40 pm

Gomoto wrote:Funny thing is that most (strong) amateurs are very fast at critisizing non orthodox plays or plays they have not seen very often before,

Pas moi. See, for instance: https://senseis.xmp.net/?ManchurianFuseki and https://senseis.xmp.net/?UpperManchurianFuseki

while the pros I asked about my early approach moves (I also like to approach the 3-4 point before the empty second corner) are very encouraging when you try something creative in the opening.

Me, too.

That is not the question before us.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:45 pm

Gomoto wrote:If you call the 6-3 inside approach an obviously not unreasonable play you are at the starting point of my discussion. I am wondering why it has not appeared in pro games more often.

The only game I found in my database is Yang Hui 8d - Liu Xiaoguang 9d (B) 1995
(It is not a ninrensei fuseki, but a diagonal opening, but it is still the same position)

$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 5 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Consider, if you will, the difference between these boards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board I $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Board II $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 3 . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:36 am

Ok I understand, you can not agree that the 6-3 inside approach is of the same size as the second empty 4-4 corner.

Size is not the only factor (yeah, yeah: said the bishop to the actress). Pros make fuseki moves based on several other factors, and end up playing fusekis that don't agree with the basic books (where size is really the only criterion). For example, a move can be played as a probe or as a spoiler (the 6-3 move often falls into those categories). Quite often a move can have a (typically mild) psychological basis ("I'm not going to let him have a parallel fuseki").

This is not unreasonable, to use your phrase, and when these moves are played they often elicit no commentary, so common are they.

But trying to justify such moves by citing basic size theory seems like stepping onto shifting sand. Take the Jacobite victory at the battle of Prestonpans. Cope had size hugely on his side and followed basic theory perfectly - he even guarded against a surprise attack. But the Jacobites still surprised him by sneaking through the marshes with a 6-3 approach and then adding terror psychology - a highland charge through the mist bolstered by the skirl of the bagpipes. But Cope's side won the war. There are only so many times you can play "surprise, surprise" moves. Take the battle of Culloden.

John Fairbairn · Post by **John Fairbairn** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:58 am

Here are a couple of commentaries in which both players explains their fuseki moves. I just grabbed the first two to hand. There is nothing special about them but I think they show that pros do not think or talk about fuseki in anything like the same way that basic books do. It is also noteworthy how often Kitani and Murashima thought they had ballsed up in the first 20-few moves even though they had 11 hours each thinking time. NB There are hundreds of such commentaries. References to size are very, very, very, very, very rare.

The game references are to the GoGoD database.

Game 1: 1936-04-01b
W: Kitani Minoru 7d B: Murashima Yoshinori 5d
W: I thought White 10 was slack for White but I chose it for this position.
B: And if I play 11 at A (M3)…?
W: White plays at 11. That seems to make the game fairly expansive (hiroi).
W: For White 16 I also thought about pressing at B (D6) and after Black C (C7), White D (C9), Black E (D7), playing the two-space extension to 17.
B: Playing 17 at D (C9) instead was the honte.
W: 18 was slack. I ought to have punished Black 17 with D (C9). That would make the game fairly expansive, a position where White can expect something.
B: I was somewhat confused about 19. Since playing around 35 (Q11) is a rather good point, that was one idea, but that would be absurd as White can check at A (C10).
W: With 22 I should have jumped to B (P10) and after Black C (P8) quietly play D (N10).
B: 23: pressing down at 24 was proper.

Game 2: 1936-04-01a
W: Onoda Chiyotaro 6d B: Go Seigen 6d
W: The reason I did not block immediately at 14 with 8 was that I wanted to see first how Black would defend here.
B: It is possible to show figthing spirit (kiai) and hane at A (F16) instead of playing 9, but I can’t really let White seal me in with B (P15).
B: 17 Cutting at A (F16) immediately instead of 17 was also an excellent move, I felt.
W: I was at a loss as to how to play 18 and so tried this attachment. Sliding in at C (Q18) instead somehow seems tepid.
B: If 19 pulls back at A (L15), it seems White can continue by pushing up at 19.
B: Connecting at A (L15) instead of playing 23 was a more solid attitude.
W: There are various ways to proceed after 26.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:23 pm

Thanks for your insightful posts John.

Just for clarification. I am not talking of "size" in the sense of how many points of territory a move is making. I try to develop a feeling in which "category" a move belongs. I want to know which moves are interchangeable at a certain stage or position in the game, because they contribute a similar effort to the goal of winning the game. In this sense i am thinking the 6-3 approach and the play at the second empty corner are of a similar "size".

(I am aware that naturally these two concepts of "size" are related to each other.)

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:35 am

This variation is slightly better for white

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:57 am

Gomoto wrote:This variation is slightly better for white
$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . O 3 . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Please explain. Thanks.

Edit: A thought.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun May 06, 2018 3:00 pm

Let us have a look what Leela Zero and Elf are thinking about the early approach move:

Leela Zero:

: early1.jpg (83.44 KiB) Viewed 1830 times

Elf:

: early2.jpg (84.44 KiB) Viewed 1830 times

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Sun May 06, 2018 3:13 pm

When Leela Zero and Elf duke it out it all depends on some ladders a few moves later.
While Elf makes still ladder mistakes it seems to be superior in ladder reading for now.

: early3.jpg (188.68 KiB) Viewed 1829 times

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