Game plan as white?

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Kirby
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Kirby »

Tryss wrote:
Gomoto wrote:If you are in the middlegame and counting is roughly 35 to 35 (42) points you are 20% behind white.


Yeah, 35 to 36 (43.5) is different compared to 65 to 66 (73.5).

Except that's also the difference between 180 points to 181 (188.5) and 180 points to 181 (188.5) with area counting (if there's no seki)


Point is, there are different types of games, and sometimes the fixed value of komi can make more of a difference. If both sides have tons of captures with lots of points on both sides, 7.5 points is less significant than the case where neither side has many points (eg. Not many captures, lots of small living groups on each side).

If you’re white, aim for the latter type of game. If you’re black, aim to make big points and make the komi irrelevant.
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Kirby »

Maybe I’m wrong. I thought about a board split in half with black having 8 more points. If you split both groups, they lose the same number of points.

I’m not sure one way or another, now.

From another perspective, moves in the opening are worth more than moves in endgame, so maybe trying to get to endgame faster makes komi worth more.

Maybe that’s the point :scratch:
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Re: Re:

Post by daal »

Bill Spight wrote:
EdLee wrote:If we tend to lose slugfests -- we can have some educated guesses for the reasons -- and we choose to avoid slugfests, then how will we ever improve at slugfests ( and deal with said reasons ) ?


Well worth repeating. :)

Bill Spight wrote:
daal wrote:I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that :)


Two words to the wise: Sabaki and Shinogi. :)


I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. :lol:
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Kirby »

Play weaker players, then? ;-)
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Tryss »

Or a gun ? :rambo:

"If I lose this game, I'll kill you, and if I'm not enjoying it, I'll kill your familly. Have fun and good game! "
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Post by EdLee »

I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. :lol:
:salute: Thanks for clarifying! :mrgreen:
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Re: Re:

Post by Bill Spight »

daal wrote:I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. :lol:


OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by daal »

Kirby wrote:Play weaker players, then? ;-)
This month I'm 4 - 4 against 6ks and 7 - 2 against 4ks... Looks like it's the other way around. Seems my recipe as white could use some spice.

Bill Spight wrote:
daal wrote:I don't generally avoid slugfests - it's just that if I can fight with an advantage, I prefer to do that :)


Two words to the wise: Sabaki and Shinogi. :)
These are skills that involve fighting at a disadvantage. I do seem to be lacking in these, but unfortunately I don't seem to be very good at learning from my mistakes.

Bill Spight wrote:
daal wrote:I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. :lol:


OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?


According to AlphaGo it is a stone on the 3-4 point, not facing the black stone

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B AG has 46.8 winrate for Black
$$ +---------------------------------------+
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: Re:

Post by djhbrown »

daal wrote:a way to win more without having to improve my go.
do like they do in chess: cheat.

you can't ask Her Alfieness, but you can ask Leela, or - even better - Swim.
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by daal »

Actually, this is sort of going in the direction I was thinking. Here B is likely to play on the left side of the board, where I already have two stones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
Patience, grasshopper.
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Gomoto »

I dont like this (aka good for white):
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


and therefore recommend this for black:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Another way for black is:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Bill Spight »

daal wrote:I think you guys are missing the point - I'm looking for a way to win more without having to improve my go. :lol:
Bill Spight wrote:OK, assuming a stone on the 4-4 pt. in one corner, what is your most effective stone placement in an adjacent corner?


According to AlphaGo it is a stone on the 3-4 point, not facing the black stone

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B AG has 46.8 winrate for Black
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Sorry for not being clear. :(

First, I am talking about you, not AlphaGo. (Edit: corrected.) AlphaGo is good at sabaki and shinogi.

Second, I meant to ask about your stone on the 4-4, not your opponent's. In this case, it seems that AlphaGo as Black likes nirensei. How about you?

Third, I mainly had White in mind. White to play can pretty well force a parallel fuseki by playing :w2: on the 4-4 point of the diagonally opposite corner from :b1:.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Parallel fuseki
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


What is your most effective play in the top left corner?
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Bill Spight »

daal wrote:Actually, this is sort of going in the direction I was thinking. Here B is likely to play on the left side of the board, where I already have two stones...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Black can easily defeat this plan by playing :b3: in the bottom left corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In fact, when human faces human, Black has good stats with this opening.
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Gomoto »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
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Re: Game plan as white?

Post by Gomoto »

To return to the original question, it is very difficult to follow a "game plan" as white. In fact it is only possible if black allows you to do so.


Therefore my game plan as white is to disturb black's plan and take over the initiative as early as possible. (But you depend on blacks plays and have to wait for your opportunity.)
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