Hi all, in my recent games on Tygem I've had quite a lot of players play the following joseki when I approach a star point;
What sort of global things should I be considering when continuing? E.g. if B has a position in the upper right, or lower left, etc? I don't feel like I really have any constructive things to think about with this particular joseki, and it always seems to turn out good for black.
Thanks all for any input.
Zac
4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
The general theory behind this joseki is that black is willing to give up an outside wall and give up sente and get bad shape in return for a corner. White has little choice but to accept the deal. If he leaves the three stones unconnected they get chopped up and eventually die.
Actually, white should be happy to accept the deal. Early in the game, sente is worth a bunch.
On a global scale, you should be thinking of this as influence that will work for you later which is not easily attacked. You take sente, play moves that will compel him to fight in the center - where he will lose because you have greater influence.
( BTW, I am assuming that white plays 8 at G15 and black plays 9 at D14 or D13 )
Actually, white should be happy to accept the deal. Early in the game, sente is worth a bunch.
On a global scale, you should be thinking of this as influence that will work for you later which is not easily attacked. You take sente, play moves that will compel him to fight in the center - where he will lose because you have greater influence.
( BTW, I am assuming that white plays 8 at G15 and black plays 9 at D14 or D13 )
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zac
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
Thanks for the explanation. What other options does W have other than connect at G15? Is the influence worth as much if e.g. B has a strong position in the upper right? Maybe it's wrong to approach low like this if that were the case?Joaz Banbeck wrote:The general theory behind this joseki is that black is willing to give up an outside wall and give up sente and get bad shape in return for a corner. White has little choice but to accept the deal. If he leaves the three stones unconnected they get chopped up and eventually die.
Actually, white should be happy to accept the deal. Early in the game, sente is worth a bunch.
On a global scale, you should be thinking of this as influence that will work for you later which is not easily attacked. You take sente, play moves that will compel him to fight in the center - where he will lose because you have greater influence.
( BTW, I am assuming that white plays 8 at G15 and black plays 9 at D14 or D13 )
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EdLee
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zac
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Re:
Haha no, I only mean in my games! Maybe its more of a problem of not using the influence effectively. Maybe I should take a look at what Leela thinks of my actual games, and suggested continuations after that corner situation.EdLee wrote:Hi zac,
W has many options, including tenuki.
One must look at the whole board.How do you know ? Did you check with Leela's evaluation ?it always seems to turn out good for black.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
Of course, this is the ideal strategy, which seldom comes to pass unless white is an ideal patsy. White is likely to recognize that you have influence and prudently avoid risking much in the middle. This reticence often allows you to use the outside stones to take territory along the side, or perhaps a moyo in the middle.Joaz Banbeck wrote:...On a global scale, you should be thinking of this as influence that will work for you later which is not easily attacked. You take sente, play moves that will compel him to fight in the center - where he will lose because you have greater influence...
The important thing to note here is that you have to have a plan that threatens to make the former expensive, so that you might achieve the latter. Territory seldom requires planning to make itself known in the final score, whereas influence does.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re:
Ed is, of course correct, but that tenuki requires some fine positional judgement that should not be expected of an SDK. I deliberately omitted it to keep the position simple. I recommend sticking with the G15 connection until you hit mid-dan.EdLee wrote:...W has many options, including tenuki...
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EdLee
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Hi zac,
Basic idea, locally: you have two cuts and you cannot fix both with one move. So:
If you want cash, fix the G17 cut.
If you want the outside, fix the G15 cut.
Globally, all bets are off, since we have to look at the whole board to decide on the next move.
I understood you to mean your games only and that's what I was also referring to!I only mean in my games!
Basic idea, locally: you have two cuts and you cannot fix both with one move. So:
If you want cash, fix the G17 cut.
If you want the outside, fix the G15 cut.
Globally, all bets are off, since we have to look at the whole board to decide on the next move.
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
Jiang and Rui, in their three volume text, The World's New Joseki, point out that traditional 4-4 joseki were mainly used in handicap games, and therefore are often not equitable in even games. Modern pros are discovering/devising new 4-4 joseki, which often involve sharp fighting. And, OC, since the advent of AlphaGo, even more new 4-4 joseki are being played.
This attach and block joseki is one of the traditional joseki. Since Black makes an empty triangle, it may be inferior for Black. OTOH, White has two cutting points to worry about.
Has AlphaGo ever played this joseki? Not that I recall. But AlphaGo likes to jump into the 3-3.
Looking at this position afresh, I thought, why not tenuki? And indeed, according to Waltheri ( http://ps.waltheri.net ) the winning percentage for a tenuki is up there with the most frequent plays.
When I was learning go the usual continuation was for White to connect at one of the cutting points and then for Black to cut at the other. I nearly always made the solid connection on the fifth line, and indeed, it is the most popular continuation on Waltheri. Nowadays the solid connection on the third line has fallen out of favor.
looks a bit peculiar. How come? Because Black could have made it straightaway.
Does Black really gain anything by exchanging the
stones for the 
stones? On an empty board, I don't think so. The bad shape is a big clue. Black should only play this way, I think, when she believes that White's influence is less than usual.
This attach and block joseki is one of the traditional joseki. Since Black makes an empty triangle, it may be inferior for Black. OTOH, White has two cutting points to worry about.
Has AlphaGo ever played this joseki? Not that I recall. But AlphaGo likes to jump into the 3-3.
Looking at this position afresh, I thought, why not tenuki? And indeed, according to Waltheri ( http://ps.waltheri.net ) the winning percentage for a tenuki is up there with the most frequent plays.
When I was learning go the usual continuation was for White to connect at one of the cutting points and then for Black to cut at the other. I nearly always made the solid connection on the fifth line, and indeed, it is the most popular continuation on Waltheri. Nowadays the solid connection on the third line has fallen out of favor.
looks a bit peculiar. How come? Because Black could have made it straightaway.Does Black really gain anything by exchanging the
stones for the stones? On an empty board, I don't think so. The bad shape is a big clue. Black should only play this way, I think, when she believes that White's influence is less than usual.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
A few sequences to get started:
White connect on outside if centre/influence important. Tends to be good if white is building something on top side/centre. a is then an important point for both, black might play there instead of capturing the one stone. White might play there instead of atari of 5 (which means black captured a stone in sente, but the ko is still big), but if white doesn't play there then black b is big to secure his eyeshape and reduce white's, who might answer at c. With the atari white keeps black's eyeshape under question, which means moves towards the corner can have attacking purpose. Descend if you want to live locally and make territory. Cut of 2 builds centre for black, pincer at 5 instead is more aggressive choice. black might capture at 6 directly rather than push at 4. 5 might hane. 7 is a key point for strength of both groups, easy to overlook. Falling back at 8 might look odd, the point is if you block then peep or clamp means white can often scoop out the corner later, so you back off to be more sure of getting a slightly smaller corner. With extra support on left block could be plausible but leaves bad aji.
White connect on outside if centre/influence important. Tends to be good if white is building something on top side/centre. a is then an important point for both, black might play there instead of capturing the one stone. White might play there instead of atari of 5 (which means black captured a stone in sente, but the ko is still big), but if white doesn't play there then black b is big to secure his eyeshape and reduce white's, who might answer at c. With the atari white keeps black's eyeshape under question, which means moves towards the corner can have attacking purpose. Descend if you want to live locally and make territory. Cut of 2 builds centre for black, pincer at 5 instead is more aggressive choice. black might capture at 6 directly rather than push at 4. 5 might hane. 7 is a key point for strength of both groups, easy to overlook. Falling back at 8 might look odd, the point is if you block then peep or clamp means white can often scoop out the corner later, so you back off to be more sure of getting a slightly smaller corner. With extra support on left block could be plausible but leaves bad aji.
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gowan
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
If I recall correctly the attach and block joseki was played by top pros like Kobayashi Koichi in games in the late '70s early '80s in Japan.
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Joaz Banbeck
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
Here is a game from 1992, with Kobayashi as white, using the influence in the center:gowan wrote:If I recall correctly the attach and block joseki was played by top pros like Kobayashi Koichi in games in the late '70s early '80s in Japan.
So far, this looks like four samples out of a joseki book.
White's play at N15 is not considered a particularly good joseki. But it works here. White is trying to compel black to fight in the center at a disadvantage.
This is how a top pro uses the outside influence of the white side of the attach and extend joseki.
Black eventually lived small on the right side, and white got a wall facing toward the center while attacking that group. The white wall was then used to make a moyo.
FWIW, here is the full game:
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
IIRC, this joseki is territorially good for black, and a good way to make a solid position. Locally, black has an advantage, but black has played an extra stone:
White gets to play fast, and has a flexible position in the area.
It reminds me of this one:
Black gets a lot of points, but white's position is pretty solid.
With both of these joseki, I think black opts to settle the position quickly, giving both sides a relatively solid position. That's probably why it's a decent choice for handicap games - eliminate complexity, and just get some solid points.
White gets to play fast, and has a flexible position in the area.
It reminds me of this one:
Black gets a lot of points, but white's position is pretty solid.
With both of these joseki, I think black opts to settle the position quickly, giving both sides a relatively solid position. That's probably why it's a decent choice for handicap games - eliminate complexity, and just get some solid points.
be immersed
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
I must say that I'm partial to the name "Koby" - it reminds me of my own nickname. Maybe I should start going by "Kirbayashi" around here...Joaz Banbeck wrote:
be immersed
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Re: 4-4 Low approach, attach & block joseki question
Not that it really matters, but in that game white is Kobayashi Satoru, not the Kobayashi people usually mean if they don't qualify it with a given name and for whom the Kobayashi opening is named (but Koichi was black).Joaz Banbeck wrote:Here is a game from 1992, with Kobayashi as white, using the influence in the center:gowan wrote:If I recall correctly the attach and block joseki was played by top pros like Kobayashi Koichi in games in the late '70s early '80s in Japan.