It is currently Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:57 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Who will win?
Poll ended at Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:09 am
Park Junghwan 53%  53%  [ 9 ]
Ke Jie 18%  18%  [ 3 ]
Shin Jinseo 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Iyama Yuta 24%  24%  [ 4 ]
Yamashita Keigo 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Wang Yuanjun 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 17
Author Message
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #21 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:56 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
Actually at first I question if it's morally wrong for Shin Jinseo to keep playing and rely on Ke Jie's mistake. But I noticed that it's actually Ke Jie that play fast and pressure Shin Jinseo to make even more mistake.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #22 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:13 am 
Lives in gote

Posts: 340
Liked others: 302
Was liked: 170
Here is the youtube video with Michael Redmond's commentary for the day 1 games - the link is to the point where the actual commentary starts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRDlb9b ... e&t=51m07s

_________________
Sorin - 361points.com


This post by sorin was liked by 2 people: Waylon, Zenit
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #23 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:21 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
With the recent discussion of seiza-or-not, here's a still of Yamashita sitting on his knees on a chair from the above video.

Attachment:
YamashitaSit,jpg.jpg
YamashitaSit,jpg.jpg [ 75.34 KiB | Viewed 2408 times ]


This post by Uberdude was liked by: Bonobo
Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #24 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:00 pm 
Oza
User avatar

Posts: 2777
Location: Seattle, WA
Liked others: 251
Was liked: 549
KGS: oren
Tygem: oren740, orenl
IGS: oren
Wbaduk: oren
Yamashita is somewhat famous for keeping seiza through his matches. I think all members of his school do but he's been in a lot of two day matches, so it's hard.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #25 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 3:48 pm 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
Ahead of Yamashita's game with Iyama, I had a look at the head-to-head records. Iyama leads (on games in go4go) 41-20, with 4-1 in the last year. In fact tomorrow will be the 1-year anniversary of Yamashita's last win (in the 4th Championship of Tournament Winners, maybe Iyama didn't try so hard in that compared to big titles), can he repeat the feat? Some people may have wanted Ichiriki Ryo to be the 2nd Japanese player (as a young rising player, whereas Yamashita is probably past his peak, but won their game in qualifier final) and he is the #2 Japanese on goratings (#64 to Yamashita's #77), but I think Yamashita probably has better slim chances of beating Iyama. Ichiriki's lifetime head-to-head is a dismal 21-5, on a 13 game losing streak, but comparing that to Yamashita's is unfair as the latter is older than Iyama so could get more wins before Iyama was at his top strength. Nevertheless, Yamashita has more experience of playing long (4- or 8-hour, this event is 3-hour) games against Iyama and has won quite a few of them (not enough to win titles recently) which could give him some hope. Looking at their stats since 2016 (around when Iyama upped his dominance of Japanese Go and got all 7 titles) Yamahista is at 1-8, whilst Ichiriki is 1-15. Takao Shinji probably has one of the best with 6-11 (though his lifetime of 21-44 is very similar to similar-aged Yamashita).

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #26 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:09 pm 
Dies in gote

Posts: 54
Liked others: 48
Was liked: 7
Rank: EGF 5k
DGS: 1k
Universal go server handle: dsatkas
I would have preferred Shibano tbh. Better yet, more Chinese and Korean players. Japan having 2 players and Iyama being seeded to the next round playing another Japanese player is a joke.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #27 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:06 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8672
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2008
GD Posts: 312
On Yi-ke server:
Code:
Pairs                      Viewership

Mr. Ke    -- Mr. Shin      ~1.+  M
Mr. Iyama -- Mr. Wang      ~  100K

(semi-final)
Mr. Ke    -- Mr. Park      ~1.84 M
Mr. Iyama -- Mr. Yamashita ~  111K

(final)
Mr. Iyama -- Mr. Park      ~  744K

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #28 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 8:10 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
Since Yamashita get into second round I can say that he's not the wrong choice.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #29 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:08 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
Lucas Baker (6d) is a surprised commentator today, since he's one of AlphaGo engineer he should provide AlphaGo winrate too!

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject:
Post #30 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:40 pm 
Honinbo
User avatar

Posts: 8672
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Liked others: 323
Was liked: 2008
GD Posts: 312
Quote:
...he should provide AlphaGo winrate too!
Alas, he probably doesn't have access, or isn't allowed to, or both... :batman:

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #31 Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:37 pm 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
According to FineArt, move 97 and 99 cost Ke Jie a game

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #32 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:29 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
Iyama Yuta lead until mid-game and then he got into complicated position, it's pretty even at that point and then White (Yamashita) made questionable variation (could say bad) at move 172 that make Black comeback and win.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #33 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
pookpooi wrote:
Iyama Yuta lead until mid-game and then he got into complicated position, it's pretty even at that point and then White (Yamashita) made questionable variation (could say bad) at move 172 that make Black comeback and win.

In Redmond's commentary he couldn't find how Black survived if white 172 was descend on left side. Iyama showed how in the post-game analysis: pole connection is sente on cutting stone and then atekomi tesuji sets up a snapback. So 169 tesuji does seem to be legit and saves the day. Park is a sharper reader though so Iyama needs to be careful about letting it get so dicey tomorrow.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #34 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:01 am 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
pookpooi wrote:
Lucas Baker (6d) is a surprised commentator today, since he's one of AlphaGo engineer he should provide AlphaGo winrate too!

It was nice to see Lucas, and I thought he did a good job as co-host, asking for explanation of a lot of variations viewers would be wondering about too. 6d is presumably his Japanese rating though: he plays in Europe as 2d, though went up to 3d with good results (including beating me) at his last tournament.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #35 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:02 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
I remember one comment, not sure if it's in this webboard or Reddit that said that Iyama Yuta had the ability to hack into Japanese pro brains and see how they think. I'm now convinced that he can really do that!
But tomorrow will be very tough day for him, for Park Jungwhan is in his top form.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #36 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:40 am 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
pookpooi wrote:
According to FineArt, move 97 and 99 cost Ke Jie a game

They do look inexplicably bad to me: wouldn't 97 at 98 have some kind of ko connection or at least make a little eye shape? That kind of "please cut me on dame before I live" can make sense when you are getting some nice sente profit on the other side, but I'm not seeing much here. Waiting for the live video to be available for replay to see if Redmind can explain.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #37 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:52 am 
Oza

Posts: 2374
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3439
Quote:
I would have preferred Shibano tbh. Better yet, more Chinese and Korean players. Japan having 2 players and Iyama being seeded to the next round playing another Japanese player is a joke.


Jokes are subjective but surely have to be based on how seriously you take the event, My sense is that this event is being vastly overhyped only here on L19, regarding it as "championship of the world." As we've discussed on another thread it's just an "international" tournament, and maybe one that's on shaky ground. At least the prize fund has been reduced by a full third - 30 million yen down to 20 million, which is not very much, is it? The LG and Samsung Cups offer much more than that for the winner, and the Chunlan about the same, then there's the Mlily and Bailing, but all these events also have a large infrastructure which spreads extra money around the lower-ranked players. They are also open. In other words, the Korean and Chinese events are the ones to take seriously.

This year, the event has also been reduced to far fewer games, although with more players. In its first term the event had one player from each country plus Deep Zen doing an all play all. The AI has also been excluded. The apparent diminishing of the event and the ascent of AIs might even be connected.

The selection of the players this year was based on the 1st term's winner (Pak Cheong-hwan) and the rankings in each country. Yamashita qualified as the second Japanese player on the basis of a qualification tournament.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #38 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:53 am 
Lives in sente

Posts: 723
Liked others: 44
Was liked: 217
GD Posts: 10
I just discovered go.tianrang.com
TianRang analysis in every moves in relay broadcast
Pretty helpful to me today, too bad I didn't find it for yesterday match.

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #39 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:51 am 
Judan

Posts: 6114
Location: Cambridge, UK
Liked others: 350
Was liked: 3293
Rank: UK 4 dan
KGS: Uberdude 4d
OGS: Uberdude 7d
John, although I hear what you say about Japanese not having articles etc, I think it is rather stretching incredulity to say that the organisers can plead ignorance and aren't overhyping it by calling it "World Go Championship", making the tournament website http://www.worldgochampionship.net/ and banners with a big shiny gold crown. Tom Urasoe at the Nihon-Kiin surely speaks good enough English to know what those English words convey, or is there a cultural problem that no one can say 'no' once an unnuanced translation sticks? I think "World Go Masters" would be a better name, "masters" often being used when top players are invited to a smaller event.

Also I think it's a shame about the draw because I'd like to see Iyama play more top 10 or 20 pros, and in this event he only got 1 opportunity instead of 3, and if he does win people will (justifiably) diminish his achievement by pointing out the easy draw. Still, at least it will be Park he has to beat in the final, rather than say Shin; as if Shin beat Ke and then Park but lost to Iyama (who only beat Yamashita) that would probably be the most unfair outcome of the draw.

Anyway, enough complaining about a bad name, it's nice to have this new event with commentary from Redmond. Here's Iyama's spectacular tesuji to save the day (I think it really works, but could Park find a counter, or otherwise have mashed together the bad aji from the lower side and centre attack more successfully?). Earlier Iyama had played the triangled stone as a net, rather than firmer square atari, which gave white the triangle in sente which put his upper group in more danger, but it he had this tesuji all read out then it seems he can do that.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Iyama (black) vs Yamashita
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X O . O O X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X O . X O O . X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . O X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X X X O O O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . X O X X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X O O X X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . X O . O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X X O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O O , . . . O . , O X . |
$$ | . . . O . . X X O Q . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . O X X # Y . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O . X O X X . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X O X O . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O O X . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . X O . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Here's the snapback:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm2 white connects at 7, then black a
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X O . O O X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X O . X O O . X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . O X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X X X O O O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . X O X X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X O O X X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . X O . O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X X O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . 5 . . X O O , . . . O . , O X . |
$$ | . . 3 O 2 4 X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 1 8 7 O X X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a O 9 6 O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O 0 X O X X . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X O X O . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O O X . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . X O . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If nobi same shape problem:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm2
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O O X O . O O X X X O O . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . X O . X O O . X O O O . |
$$ | . . X , O X X . O X . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . X O O . . X X X O O O . O . . X . |
$$ | . . X X O . O . X O X X . . O X O . . |
$$ | . . O O X O . . X O O X X X O X O . . |
$$ | . . X X X O . . X O . O O O X X X X . |
$$ | . . . . O X . X X O . . . X O O X . . |
$$ | . . . , . . X O O , . . . O . , O X . |
$$ | . . . O 1 . X X O O . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X 8 4 3 O X X X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O 5 2 O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X O X . O 6 X O X X . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X X . X O O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O X X . . X O X O . X O O . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . O O X . . X O X O O . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . . . . X O . X X X . . |
$$ | . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Top
 Profile  
 
Offline
 Post subject: Re: World Go Championship 2018 thread (with Poll)
Post #40 Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 7:00 am 
Oza

Posts: 2374
Liked others: 15
Was liked: 3439
Quote:
John, although I hear what you say about Japanese not having articles etc, I think it is rather stretching incredulity to say that the organisers can plead ignorance and aren't overhyping it by calling it "World Go Championship", making the tournament website


I agree the Japanese/Nihon Ki-in are overhyping the event. It's just that I sense people here are overhyping it more (uberhyping?) by reading it as THE world championship as opposed to A world (i.e. international) championship. The Japanese overhype is more to do with stretching the definition of international - not least because they appear to have excluded the Kansai Ki-in and western nations - and to some extent with size. Mountains and mice come to mind.

Missing articles (and plurals) matter more than might be supposed, as I know well from translating Japanese patents for legal purposes. They are very convenient from the Japanese point of view, and they can be well aware of that. I'm sure there is also a soupçon of inflated pride in using the "world" label, but I'm quite certain that if you push them to explain it they would just claim it was because they had players from overseas rather than it meant it was discovering the best player in the world. Having said that, when the Fujitsu Cup started and was called "World Championship" I'm sure most people in Japan took that to mean "best in the world" and that was appropriate enough at that time. Since then, the use of the phrase has become ubiquitous and, we may say, debased. But I don't think the Japanese (or the Koreans or Chinese who all have similar linguistic considerations in this particular regard) see it as a debasement. To them it's just stretching their language envelope in a natural way. That, in my view, is best conveyed by using "international" in English.

As to the fact that the Japanese have used the "world" phrase in English - this is from the land of Jinglish! Shops called Titty, Book Off, Climax Coffee, activities such as Let's Bowling, a ski lift that offers Downhill Last Feces of Today, girls' T-shirts emblazoned with the one world Milk. As I said before it's s design tic. They just want it to look English, not be English. Never mind the quality, feel the width.

Going off at a tangent, I've pointed out the overhype of Shusaku before. One example is the famous kosumi fuseki named after him, when it was Inoue Genan who played it first. I just found another example yesterday, where he is credited with inventing a popular joseki that was played first by another Inoue Inseki, Setsuzan. In many ways the Honinbo/Inoue antipathy is still present in the Nihon Ki-in/Kansai Ki-in dealings.


Quote:
Anyway, enough complaining about a bad name,


Again I agree. But, for reference, I've called this event the Nihon Ki-in International Championship in the GoGoD database (to stress the Nihon Ki-in bias as much as anything) and for the other one I use Senko Women's International Championship. I'm still in two minds about World Veterans Tournament, but I think the absence of the word "championship" excuses that.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 54 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group