The Story of a Loser - The Great Pitfall of Studying Go!

[Knotwilg]

- Attack & Defense

A life long companion.

Leela considers me 5kyu-ish, while Igowin has me at 13 kyu, constantly shifting between 2 stone handicap and even game (I start as black).
Now I don't hold too much importance on these ranks, but I guess it says something about my overall strength and I think I've improved hugely in just a month or so.

Your feeling matters. These ranks really don't. With the amount of hours you put it, you WILL improve your rank.

Biggest weakness is probably still contact-fighting.
So that's why Igowin is probably stil a valuable tool for me.

When watching your 11H Leela game, indeed. It looks like you should play less blitzy and think a bit more to pût all your acquired knowledge to use. But one can also see you learn through the game.

[Ian Butler]

Thanks. I've seen you once before in the go club in Ghent, a couple of weeks ago!

I agree that rankings don't matter. I exclusively use them to keep track of my improvement. And even then it's like you say: your feeling matters.
At the moment I feel (for the first time) that I at least have some idea of how to play go, and that I have a basis of knowledge and insight in the game. Like when you're learning a language you realize you're finally good enough to go on holiday and speak to the locals, even if it's only for buying a baguette

Attack & Defense looks like a book that can be read a lot of times and you can keep getting things out of it. For that matter, so is Lessons in Fundamentals. While it's less "practical", it gives you a good core of what you should think of while playing the game.

As for your remark on the blitzy playing, I think that's spot on. Though honestly it happens a lot faster on computer than in real life. I have the patience so sit in front of a Go board for 2 hours and play a real nice game. On the computer (especially against a computer) I tend to start clicking rather quickly. It's something to work on.

Still, it's good to know your weaknesses and even better if you know you can work on them!

[Knotwilg]

Thanks. I've seen you once before in the go club in Ghent, a couple of weeks ago!

A miracle! Haven't been there for years. Or have they honoured their founding father with posters?

[Ian Butler]

Thanks. I've seen you once before in the go club in Ghent, a couple of weeks ago!

A miracle! Haven't been there for years. Or have they honoured their founding father with posters?

You're on every tea cup!
Haha no my bad, someone resembling your avatar, though!

[Ian Butler]

Playing Leela is really paying off. I'm playing a few 9x9 games against her now. It's not really fair with her millions of simulations and me with my lowly single human brain but she's making me think hard about every move and it's great to analyse afterward.

Anyway, this is a 9x9 game I played on GoQuest (I'm black).
This game dates before my Leela 9x9 training, but already (I think) you can see a difference between my 9x9 game now and just a week ago. At least it feels differently.



White won fairly comfortably in the end, but my fighting skills are no longer non-existing. Yes, messed up my reading in the upper right, but this feels more acceptable than before.
And now my "training" with Leela is improving me further (read: forcing me to think about my moves more).



Lastly for today: I'm feeling this strange effect and I wanted to ask if other people share this sometimes. When I play a stronger player, my game is about as good as it gets (meaning for me). But when I play worse players, even absolute beginners, my play slacks and I even find myself making weird mistakes.
Anyone can relate to that?

I think it's probably the lack of deep reading when playing beginners, or maybe a lack of concentration of some sorts. I'm not saying I play badly, but I slack more against worse players and play my best games against better players. Maybe it's a universal thing. For me this doesn't only go for Go, I also feel this in sports at times. Playing better players drives me to my best game.

[Bill Spight]

Lastly for today: I'm feeling this strange effect and I wanted to ask if other people share this sometimes. When I play a stronger player, my game is about as good as it gets (meaning for me). But when I play worse players, even absolute beginners, my play slacks and I even find myself making weird mistakes.
Anyone can relate to that?

Yes. In my teens, especially, in competitive contests I tended to match my skill level to that of my opponents. I can't say that I have entirely overcome that tendency. Some years ago in an exhibition game, a coupon go endgame vs. Korean pro Nam Chihyung, I made an early misstep and, as Billie Jean King used to say, raised the level of my game. I still suffered a small loss, but that experience showed me that I was not normally playing at my best.

Terence Reese's dictum that someone who plays up to himself is hard to beat helped me to overcome that tendency, to the extent that I have. It is very important in most contract bridge tournaments, where most of your opponents are inferior. You have to do well against them.

During my first year of learning go I benefited from the fact that my opponents were much better than I and gave me inferior handicaps for 8-9 months. You would also probably benefit from playing opponents who are at least 3 stones stronger than you.

[Bill Spight]

Top of the head comments.

Good. Hane at the head of two stones. But the other hane looks bigger, eh?

Good locally, But the counter-hane or even the cut looks better.

Bad shape: Empty triangle. Time for Black to cut.

Atari, atari! But this play invites White to extend, leaving Black vulnerable to the second line hane on the bottom side, and still leaving the cut on the top side. Probably better just to cut.

Good!

Locally OK. But White has weaker stones elsewhere. How about the turn at G-03, threatening the three White stones on the bottom side?

OK locally. But consider the extension to D-02. If White hanes there the two Black stones have only two dame, but after the extension the three stones have five dame. Wilcox's saying is Five Alive! Which is pretty much true here. Black does not mind losing the top right corner if he can take the rest of the board.

A blunder, as you now know. You gotta hane.

Pull back to B-04, which connects your stones on the left side.

Terrible blunder.

The bottom side is bigger. Also, J-08 is correct locally. You won't like it if White throws in there.

Huh? Would you rather take one stone or the bottom left corner? Block at C-02. Game losing move.

There is a tesuji at A-02. If now White plays at A-03, atari at C-02. Bingo!

[Knotwilg]

Lastly for today: I'm feeling this strange effect and I wanted to ask if other people share this sometimes. When I play a stronger player, my game is about as good as it gets (meaning for me). But when I play worse players, even absolute beginners, my play slacks and I even find myself making weird mistakes.
Anyone can relate to that?

It's pretty common. Weaker players make more random moves, of which the occasional threat is harder to spot than the more polished play by better players.

In go there's something at work which I would call a "common story". You make each other believe something is truly important, while it isn't, playing small moves in answer to each other. A stronger player will show you the bigger area and reinforce the idea you can actually play elsewhere.

There's also a psychological effect. Against a stronger player, you have no stress and can freely think. Against weaker players, you put yourself under pressure "having to win". The stress often causes you to play worse. It's not easy to "play your best go" regardless of who the opponent is.

And finally, there is a bit of self deception at play. A stronger player can probably easily control the margin and win by a difference you find "small" and so you think you played almost on par, while in their eyes, you were always behind by a lot.

[Ian Butler]

Thanks Bill, for your analysis Taking that one stone might've been the biggest mistake, yes.

Thank you both for your answers. Truth rings to what you say. I'm finding that more and more it's indeed very hard to 'play your best go'. Solving problems in a book is still a long way away from reaching that same level in your own games.
Playing stronger players works best for me to get better, playing weaker players sometimes seems to make me weaker. This is probably not true, but my games are of a very low quality against weaker players

And finally, there is a bit of self deception at play. A stronger player can probably easily control the margin and win by a difference you find "small" and so you think you played almost on par, while in their eyes, you were always behind by a lot.

I hadn't thought about that before.
When starting to play Go, I decided that some things were to be learned later on. So I put some things on the long term.
This includes:

- Joseki (though I study a few, to know some basics)
- Counting
- Ko
- Seki

These things I haven't concerned myself an awful lot with. But now that I'm getting down at least the very basics, it might be time to seriously start looking into those things.
- Ko almost seems like a must, though I haven't seen it come up often in my games yet.
- Joseki I guess can wait, but maybe learn one every once in a while.
- Seki is something I'd still wait for, maybe I'm mistaken in its importance.

Lastly there's counting. I wonder how important it is at my level. So far I just figured, play best you can and in most my games the difference is rather large, or resignation.
Trouble is that it's very hard to count when you don't see so easily what are points and what aren't. Some boxes look like solid territory, and then suddenly they ain't. Some corners seem wide open, but turn into territory rather easily...

Any tips for learning how to count properly? Or is it not necessary/important yet?

[Bill Spight]

When starting to play Go, I decided that some things were to be learned later on. So I put some things on the long term.
This includes:

- Joseki (though I study a few, to know some basics)
- Counting
- Ko
- Seki

These things I haven't concerned myself an awful lot with. But now that I'm getting down at least the very basics, it might be time to seriously start looking into those things.
- Ko almost seems like a must, though I haven't seen it come up often in my games yet.
- Joseki I guess can wait, but maybe learn one every once in a while.
- Seki is something I'd still wait for, maybe I'm mistaken in its importance.

Lastly there's counting. I wonder how important it is at my level. So far I just figured, play best you can and in most my games the difference is rather large, or resignation.
Trouble is that it's very hard to count when you don't see so easily what are points and what aren't. Some boxes look like solid territory, and then suddenly they ain't. Some corners seem wide open, but turn into territory rather easily...

Any tips for learning how to count properly? Or is it not necessary/important yet?

Seki is not all that important, but it is easy. There are complicated sekis, but most sekis are not. The basic seki patterns are easy to learn, and useful to recognize when you are considering semeai and life and death situations. Also, invading to make seki or defending an invasion to make seki can be useful in the endgame.

Joseki is a trap for DDKs and SDKs. Joseki plays are not always best, but they are tempting. Particularly at your level, exploration is better than playing joseki.

Ko is not easy, but it is essential. If you don't know ko, you don't know go. Experience is important. Don't avoid ko because it is hard. Best to get your feet wet.

Counting is difficult to impossible early in the game, much easier towards the end. The problem is, by the time that you can make an accurate count, it is often too late to do anything about it. Still, it is good to practice. For instance, when you play over a game, back up to about 30 moves from the end and try counting the territories. In an actual game, I would suggest trying to count fairly secure territory at around move 100. Then you can say, to win I have to make X net points territory elsewhere or prevent the opponent from making X net points of territory. You don't have to be all that precise. Sakata said that amateurs could be satisfied to count net territory to within 5 points.

[Ian Butler]

Okay, I purchased some new Go books. Because of the delivery fee, I've also ordered some books outside of my strength, but that I can read later, I just ordered them already.

If you've read some of them and particularly (dis)like one, let me know!

1971 Honinbo Tournament
My most favorite 'Go hobby' is replaying professional games. I don't know if it teaches me a lot at 18 kyu, but it calms me down and is perfect for a rainy evening. So this book will be awesome for me, I think. Especially since the commentary is supposed to be real insightful.

38 basic joseki
I don't want to invest time wrongly in learning joseki, but I've heard good things about this book. I won't just memorize the joseki, but at least read through them so I recognize more of them.

GGPB 4
For way down the line. I'm an optimist

On the Road to One Dan (20-17 kyu)
Not too sure what to expect, but heard good things about it.

Reflections on the Game of Go
Supposedly a bundle of essays, focusing more on the buddhist side of Go, which is what draws me to the game most of all. So perfect for me, I think.

All about Thickness
To be honest, I have doubts about this. I've read contrasting reviews, so I decided to give it the benifit of the doubt.

Endgame (elementary series)
Read an inspiring chapter on endgame in Lessons in Fundamentals, so I gotta know more!

Mastering Ladders
Comes with a CD with games featuring ladders and problems. Ladders are quite essential and I don't think working on them is a waste of time.

In the Beginning
At first I was sceptical because "I already know the rules and 25kyu basics", but apparently it's a good book all round even for intermediate beginners. Even so, refreshing can't hurt.

Positional Judgement
Supposed to be tough, so not sure if it's for right now.

The Treasure Chest Enigma
Seems like a sweet little treasure itself. Looking forward to reading it!



With that, I probably have enough books for a few years :p
Mainly because I plan to reread the good books very often. Things like 'Opening Theory Made Easy' is brilliant and I already implement some of the things, but I'll read it until it's my second nature to apply all those tricks!
Same goes for Attack and Defense.
Maybe also for Tesuji. I might understand it a bit better now opposed to 2 months ago.

[Bill Spight]

Okay, I purchased some new Go books. Because of the delivery fee, I've also ordered some books outside of my strength, but that I can read later, I just ordered them already.

If you've read some of them and particularly (dis)like one, let me know!--

1971 Honinbo Tournament
My most favorite 'Go hobby' is replaying professional games. I don't know if it teaches me a lot at 18 kyu, but it calms me down and is perfect for a rainy evening. So this book will be awesome for me, I think. Especially since the commentary is supposed to be real insightful.

If you like to replay pro games, I highly recommend getting Go Games on Disk (GoGOD), by John Fairbairn and T. Mark Hall. ( https://gogodonline.co.uk ) The games are uncommented, but there are a lot of extras in addition to the games. High quality material.

38 basic joseki
I don't want to invest time wrongly in learning joseki, but I've heard good things about this book. I won't just memorize the joseki, but at least read through them so I recognize more of them.

The 4-4 joseki have mostly been made obsolete by later pro play and by AlphaGo and other top AI bots. The traditional 4-4 joseki were heavily influenced by handicap play, and are often not equitable. Playing over recent pro games is probably a better introduction to those joseki.

Endgame (elementary series)
Read an inspiring chapter on endgame in Lessons in Fundamentals, so I gotta know more!

Take the evaluation of endgames with a huge grain of salt. And disregard so-called double sente. See material at Sensei's Library and here. OC, the tesuji are still tesuji. O Meien's books are better, but have not been translated, I think.

Positional Judgement
Supposed to be tough, so not sure if it's for right now.

Traditional approach, which modern AI has brought into question, without telling us how to do it better. Look for modern books as pros figure out how to do it better.

IMHO, DrStraw's approach to counting is better than the traditional one. See https://senseis.xmp.net/?SteveFawthrop%2FCounting

[Ian Butler]

Great! Thanks for your input and suggestions.

To be honest, I don't mind learning some 'old' Go stuff. I recon that, even if Positional Judgement is now outdated, it's still great advice for someone of my level. What was good for pros for decades, should be good enough for me

But I'll definitely keep in mind that some of these ideas are getting quickly outdated because of AI.
Especially the joseki, but the joseki in that book are still getting played, right? I mean on a lower, kyu level. I can imagine that Dan players and especially professional players quickly dismiss anything inferior (depending on the situation, I guess), but the beauty of not being a pro players is, imho, that there is so much room for 'imperfect' play. You can start on 3-5 and still win the game. You can play an old joseki and there's nothing big at stake

This is getting off topic a bit, but my way of thinking about Go is that there's enjoyment of the game on every level. The game itself is beautiful, but there are differences according to how well you master it.
- When you're an absolute noob, it's so new and you play anywhere you can think off. I played some great (awful, but great) games when I started.
- Around my level, you see patterns and try to put the theory of books into practise. But both sides are so amateur-ish that mistakes happen constantly, so a lot is possible. Invade somewhere impossible, and it might just work after all. You never know! This group is dead? We'll see about that.
- I imagine that when you get real strong at go, it's still as beautiful and now you're weighing on every move, reading so much ahead.

I also must admit that I'm a sucker for (go) history, like replaying old Go games. One day I definitely want to learn up on old joseki.

I'll read endgame with those comments in mind. I hope it's still bound to give me a nice introduction into the wonderful world of endgame go, where 20 points can still turn into - 20 points

[Bill Spight]

I'll read endgame with those comments in mind. I hope it's still bound to give me a nice introduction into the wonderful world of endgame go, where 20 points can still turn into - 20 points

Watch out for those 20 pt. moves that actually gain 10 pts.

[Ian Butler]

Well, this was a nice Sunday afternoon match.

I started to panic a little bit when his big snake entered "my" territory. But then I decided to put a proverb into action that I've just picked up: mutual damage. Instead of overly defending, I attacked myself, and made a living group in his area. It didn't went super smoothly but I'm happy I made one, playing lightly and staying flexibel, putting pressure on some stones to get some free moves.
I'm fairly happy with this game, especially since I got in a bad position just before the halfway point.