a is Joseki, b is a common mistake (Edit: b is probably not a clear mistake, depending on the whole board situation.)
(Edit 2: b is in fact a mistake, new variation discovered!)
let us discuss why b is a mistake:
Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
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Gomoto
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
Continuation
(Edit 2: 4 is not the correct answer! The correct play is b! See the new variation further down in the thread)
(Edit 2: 4 is not the correct answer! The correct play is b! See the new variation further down in the thread)
Last edited by Gomoto on Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
"b" is a vulgar play, for sure.Gomoto wrote: a is Joseki, b is a common mistake
let us discuss why b is a mistake:
I took a quick look at http://ps.waltheri.net , which gives it a win rate of 0.
However, this kind of sequence is not all that unusual.Gomoto wrote:Continuation
Waltheri shows only two pro games with this pattern. (Its database is limited, OC.) White continued at "a" in one, at "b" in the other. A look at both games, however, revealed a problem with Waltheri's win rates, that I have noticed before. Black won both games, not White.
Perhaps the "problem" is the cut,
. I looked in the Suzuki-Kitani Small Joseki Dictionary, which does not show the cut, but has one diagram where Black plays "a" instead, which they did not like for Black. Waltheri shows one game with that pattern. Black won it, too. 
Maybe the vulgar play is OK.
Edit:
The jump,
, is an attractive play. Waltheri reports 4 games with this pattern, but one of them looks like a duplicate. Black won 2 games to White's 1.The vulgar push,
, occurs infrequently, so I don't think that we can call it joseki. If we take this position as emblematic, we can see that there are two problems with Black's position. The first is that Black is confined to the corner. The second, perhaps more serious problem is that the 
stones are floating. OC, as the actual games indicate, that is not a fatal flaw. But I think that the health of the stones is a very important factor in whether to play or not.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram.
It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation.
Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example):
It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation.
Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example):
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Bill Spight
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
Thanks.Gomoto wrote:Thanks for your comments, especially on move 10 and 13 in your diagram.
It seems the evaluation of b in the original diagram is already strongly related to the whole board situation.
Sometimes 2 is a possible answer to 1, allthough it is pushing from behind. (Top right corner black for example):
What's you source?The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
Old bridge joke:Gomoto wrote:anonymous 9d
Bridge player, having just failed to make his contract: How should I have played that hand?
Bridge player's partner: Under an assumed name.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
New Joseki Variation discovered! (With Leela Zero's help while reviewing a game.)
a is not the strongest play for white!
the proper answer to 3 is this new joseki variation (nice tesuji): All pros in my database (6 games) played the old move at a. The new tesuji in this position seems to be a new way to play and therefore move 1 by black is not only a vulgar play but indeed a mistake.
a is not the strongest play for white!
the proper answer to 3 is this new joseki variation (nice tesuji): All pros in my database (6 games) played the old move at a. The new tesuji in this position seems to be a new way to play and therefore move 1 by black is not only a vulgar play but indeed a mistake.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
Very interesting.
But you need more to make the case than just an assertion.
But you need more to make the case than just an assertion.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
I suppose that these are Leela's suggested lines of play.
As White I would feel a bit nervous with an eyeless wall.
How does Leela feel about
? I am guessing or "a" or tenuki.The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Gomoto
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Re: Gomoto`s Joseki Studies
If this line is not feasible (for example a black stone to the right) ...
... white plays this ...
... or this
full board example where extending is not the best answer (1 should be at 2 in a case like this):
... white plays this ...
... or this
full board example where extending is not the best answer (1 should be at 2 in a case like this):
Last edited by Gomoto on Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.