17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:47 am

With this very close game, I've now reached 16 kyu on OGS, which isn't that important but it shows my continued progress up until now. I'm very happy to beat a 14 kyu, because it means that I'm definitely not at my rank by accident and that my increase in strength is not only in my head

Anyway, I've gone over the game with Leela and I've also put some notes in the file, where Leela thinks big mistakes were made. Unfortuntately I'm not strong enough to interpret them correctly, so help is definitely appreciated!
I think it's one of the best games I've played so far. Maybe not because of my actual game (there were some big mistakes and some missed opportunities), but because I managed to play it real calmly (not easy for me live) and my opponent was rather aggressive, a playing style I usually don't do well against.

All in all, an important game at this moment and I'm glad to hear your opinion about it!

[First comment at move 125]

EDIT: I'm really overusing this subforum, my apologies. In the future I'll try to limit my threads and either combine several games in one thread or post my games in the study journal or something

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:06 am

9: When the opponent makes a contact move, your first thought should be to hane (F16 or D16 here). Your second thought should be to extend (F17 or D17 here).
The heuristic to decide between the two is to ask who is locally stronger. If you are, then hane. If he is stronger, then extend.
There are tactical exceptions to this, but generally it is a good rule.

In this case, you are way stronger because of your extra stone at C16. So hane.
Once you have decided to hane, then the question arises: which side? The answer to that is a bit more vague. Then you are looking at not only tactical issues, but concepts like over-concentration.
Fortunately for you, the tactics here are simple: if you hane on the outside, it is a threat to kill with a ladder. That makes it good for you.

The options of extend/hane and left/right leaves four possibilities. ( Tenuki is a fifth, of course )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Paranoid ( one stone attacking two? ) $$-------------------- $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . B X . . . . $$|. . X . O . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Conservative ( emphasizes top ) $$-------------------- $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . X B . . . $$|. . X . O . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Mild attack ( focus on side ) $$-------------------- $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . X . . . . $$|. . X B O . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c Best, IMHO ( focus on tactics ) $$-------------------- $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . X . . . . $$|. . X . O B . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . . $$|. . . . . . . . .[/go]

Since there is not yet anything on either the left side or the top side, the focus on a particular direction in the second and third diagrams is probably premature.

-------------------------------
As I mentioned earlier in the post, there are tactical exceptions to the rule on handling contact moves. Most of those exceptions fall into the category of sacrifices, when the contact stone is a nuisance, and you have to kill it, and while you are killing it your opponent is getting some other benefit locally.
I such instances, the question of who is locally stronger is overridden by other concerns.

An example is the well known probe against a low shimari:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B The contact stone is sacrificed $$ ---------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . W 1 5 7 . . . . $$ | . . 9 X 2 4 6 8 . 0 . $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . , . $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 9:22 am

Ian Butler wrote:...
EDIT: I'm really overusing this subforum, my apologies. In the future I'll try to limit my threads and either combine several games in one thread or post my games in the study journal or something

Speaking as an admin...
1) No, you are not overusing the forum. As long as other poster's threads don't get scrolled into oblivion, you are doing no harm.
2) I don't recommend multiple games per thread in this forum. Once you post the second game, then the thread becomes hard to follow because there are two separate subjects. Generally, a thread should have one subject.
3) A study journal is entirely your choice. Then it is your thread to make as complicated as you wish.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:26 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:...
EDIT: I'm really overusing this subforum, my apologies. In the future I'll try to limit my threads and either combine several games in one thread or post my games in the study journal or something
Speaking as an admin...
1) No, you are not overusing the forum. As long as other poster's threads don't get scrolled into oblivion, you are doing no harm.

I agree.

Remember that other users, both current and future, will read your threads with interest, and may learn from them.

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:47 am

At move 211, you can block at A8.

Usually, you can't, because of this sequence :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . X O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . 5 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 1 O . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But here, it doesn't work :

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ | . . . , . . . . X X . . X O . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X X X . . . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X X . a b 5 3 X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 4 2 1 O . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

And here, WHite can't play at a, and if he continue to push with b, that doesn't change anything.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:09 am

A few top of the head comments.

Hane on the outside, threatening two ladders.

Good!

Why? Your corner is already strong.

Better than protecting the F-18 stone.

But now White gets an eye by taking that stone. Better to have played

instead of

.

The jump attachment at Q-14 looks better. Were you worried about the

stone? Don't worry, make your opponent worry.

White is greedy. That's good for you.

Good.

Play the hane on the second line. Somehow this is a play you sometimes overlook.

Bad shape. The turn at N-17 is better.

Error.

The other cut is better. White can still save the corner, but then Black does not have to give up a stone.

Very bad. Loses a move.

Ditto!

Bad, small.

Worse. Make a big play somewhere else.

Even worse.

Even worse. If you are going to play locally, at least atari at J-18 and go for it.

We are not playing Capture Four. You don't have to capture these stones.

I understand, it is a DDK malady to focus on a small region of the board and beat it to death. But it takes only a little awareness to get out of that bad habit. Something that worked for me was to take a second or two and look at the whole board before making a play. By doing so I gained four stones in one week.

Good luck!

Edit:

Extend one more time, Very big.

Ian Butler · Post by **Ian Butler** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:30 am

@Joaz: Thanks a lot for those diagrams, that's really practical advice! It was something I had not really come across before. Yes, paranoid seems to suit my style of playing a bit too often, have to work on that

@Bill: Hmm yes, it's something I'm aware of - and sometimes don't fall into that trap. Yet sometimes when you get going in an area you want to use all you can get, while you're there. I understand this is not good go-playing and you should leave an area alone way faster.
Sometimes I'm smart enough to remember it and those games do go best, obviously.
Other times I get caught up in the moment and I deserve to be punished for it

That's the thing hardest about playing an actual Go game: you can have like 100 great things in your head, that'd make yiy a fairly good go-player. But you have to remember them while playing, and for some reason, that usually doesn't happen

I guess you start to apply them as second nature the more experience you get.

The (not doing the) hane on the 2nd line is probably a bad habbit of mine, but one I had not been aware of before. It's something I haven't spend any attention on studying, too, so a bit unfamiliar territory for me. It must be more important than I realized.

Again, I learn something new this game. Thanks both already for pointing me towards a better play. It's also great to see my game review thread of a month ago being of a 22 kyu, and now already 17-16 kyu. Means I'm still developing well and having my games reviewed here is definitely a part of that!

Even though I end up making (the same) mistakes again at times

jeromie · Post by **jeromie** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:35 am

I don't have anything to add to the excellent comments you've already gotten, but don't feel like you're crowding the forum with these posts. This site has always had the majority of content generated by a few active posters, and good go related content is always welcome! These are very useful threads, too -- I'm a bit stronger than you, but I still make plenty of fundamental mistakes. It always helps me to see basic moves and attitudes reiterated; it can serve as a healthy self-assessment for when I wander from the fundamentals.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:02 pm

About move 125:

A quick estimate of territories shows that you are behind in secure territory. You are about even on the top, you are ahead on the right, but your opponent is way ahead on the bottom. In net, you are behind.
The only place left for you to make enough territory to win is the left/center.

To do that, you must hold the three triangled stones. If they die, then the circled white stones are connnected to their friends on the top side, and they invade much of the space that you need to win.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X O O . . O . O X X . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O O O X . . X X O . O . | $$ | . . . X X O . X O X X X X . . X O O . | $$ | . . Y O O O O O X , . . X X X X O X . | $$ | . X W Y Y O . X X . . . . . . X X O O | $$ | . X W . . X X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . . . W . O . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X O . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | O O X X X O O . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The easiest way to do that is like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X O O . . O . O X X . . O O . . | $$ | . . . X O . O O O O X . . X X O . O . | $$ | . . . X X O . X O X X X X . . X O O . | $$ | . . X O O O O O X , . . X X X X O X . | $$ | . X O X X O . X X . . . . . . X X O O | $$ | . X O 2 3 X X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . 1 4 O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X O . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | O O X X X O O . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Note that the stakes are so high in the center that Leela is willing to sacrifice your D18 stones - and you should be too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Huge net profit for black. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . X O O . . O . O X X . . O O . . | $$ | . . 3 X O . O O O O X . . X X O . O . | $$ | . . 1 X X O . X O X X X X . . X O O . | $$ | . 2 X O O O O O X , . . X X X X O X . | $$ | . X O X X O . X X . . . . . . X X O O | $$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . X . . X X . . 4 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X X X X O . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | O O O O X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X X X O . . . . O . . O . . . | $$ | O O X X X O O . . O . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . O O O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

BTW, white cannot capture the crucial C16 stone with the other atari. He runs out of liberties first:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . 8 5 X O O . . O . O X X . . O O . . | $$ | 7 4 6 X O . O O O O X . . X X O . O . | $$ | . 3 2 X X O . X O X X X X . . X O O . | $$ | . 1 X O O O O O X , . . X X X X O X . | $$ | . X O X X O . X X . . . . . . X X O O | $$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . . X O O X . | $$ | . . X O O . O . . . . . . . . . . X . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

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17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!

Re: 17 kyu vs 14 kyu: a close showdown!