Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:31 pm

I had White in this game and thought I was doing OK until after

when I looked at the board and saw Black with a nice moyo that didn't seem to have any weaknesses, and me with a bunch of weaknesses and little territory. I attacked, was unsuccessful, and was pretty quickly beaten comprehensively.

I have a feeling that the right choice in one of the two bottom corners was for me to play a pincer attack, but I've taken to avoiding them recently. I was getting another game reviewed and after yet another pincer attack I tried went wrong, I don't like that pincers seem to go wrong every time I try them, but never for my opponents. To which the reviewer asked, "Why do you play moves you don't like?"

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 6:41 pm

On move 35, you say

Suddenly, things don't seem so good for White. Black has good territory on the bottom, and the possibility to weaken my group in the bottom right. Black doesn't seem to have any weaknesses, either.

but I suspect that if you had been playing Black, you would have said

Suddenly, things don't seem so good for Black. White has all four corners, and Black has no territory except for the bottom, which is open on one side and has a vulnerability at N3, and a couple of points at the top. Black made two nice walls but one isn't doing anything and the other one won't do anything either when White plays around R10 on his next move. White doesn't seem to have any weaknesses, either.

Me, I think the game is pretty even.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:05 pm

Or White might say something like this:

Hmmm. There is one big place left on the board, on the right side, and I can get it. That's good for me. Black has a territorial framework on the bottom side, but it has an open skirt on the left. White's extension on the left side has left White a bit thin there, but it hinders the development of Black's wall there. R-11 looks about right on the right side, and it will also hinder the development of Black's wall there. Both of Black's walls have weaknesses. I am ahead, so maybe I should just play at R-10. It is more solid that R-11, so maybe that will make it harder for Black to catch up. Then Black will probably invade the left side, and we are off to the races.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:09 pm

Fedya wrote:I have a feeling that the right choice in one of the two bottom corners was for me to play a pincer attack, but I've taken to avoiding them recently. I was getting another game reviewed and after yet another pincer attack I tried went wrong, I don't like that pincers seem to go wrong every time I try them, but never for my opponents. To which the reviewer asked, "Why do you play moves you don't like?"

AlphaGo Master showed us that it could play pincers rather less often that humans and still win. Pincers may be overrated.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:35 pm

I don't like that pincers seem to go wrong every time I try them, but never for my opponents.

Bots like Leela can now give a concrete number.

It's probably at least informative to check your winrate (according to Leela, etc.) of each of your pincers, in your (recent) games.

With a "decent" bot, it's now feasible to check your hypothesis.

( A hunch: normal distribution for your pincers -- a few exceptionally good, a few exceptionally bad, and mostly neutral. In addition, for some of your good pincers, mistakes in your follow-up cause the real damage, not your pincers themselves. Ditto for your opponents' pincers. )

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:16 am

At move 36, something aound R10 is huge. ( Actually, O5 first, then the right side )
White is in good shape: he has four multi-stone groups that are solid. and two outliers that are light. He has no groups that can be profitably attacked. ( This, I have noticed, is one of the characteristics of pros. They seldom leave vulnerable groups once they start to become heavy. )

Black has weaknesses all over: the M17/N15 keima, the H17/G15 keima, K17, and the monkey jump from B2. In addiion, a white cap at L5 would threaten all kinds of havoc.

dfan wrote:... I think the game is pretty even.

I prefer the white position here.

EdLee wrote:...
( A hunch: normal distribution for your pincers -- a few exceptionally good, a few exceptionally bad, and mostly neutral. In addition, for some of your good pincers, mistakes in your follow-up cause the real damage, not your pincers themselves. Ditto for your opponents' pincers. )

I think that Ed has a good hunch here.

The pincer at H17 on move 21 is a good example. It seems a tad risky for my tastes - I would have played J17 instead - but it is not clearly a bad move.
The follow-up at C16 is the wrong side. Now K17 is a good play for white. The M17/N15 keima now looks weak too.
Instead, move 23 at D17 would have given black a growing wall with a potential victim on either side. White would have to defend the corner, and then black takes a big side.

Fedya wrote:... I don't like that pincers seem to go wrong every time I try them, but never for my opponents...

If some moves seem good for your opponent but not for you, that means your assessment of the moves is not at all objective. It suggests that the opponents know how to follow up, but you don't.
If so, then that best way for you to get stronger is to figure out what you are missing.

Since the pincer is an inherently attacking move, if they don't go right for you, then you need to improve your attacking techniques.

N4 is a good example. It aims for a black weak spot, but is too deep. You don't have to go directly for a weakness, just preparing to do so is often enough. If you play O5, that stone can't easily get in trouble because it is far enough away from his strength. But now it threatens to make N3 a killer, so he has to reply.
As the chess player Aron Nimzowitsch said, the threat is worse than its execution. You threaten in a way that makes some profit, he defends, and you continue elsewhere.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:41 am

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bernds · Post by **bernds** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 9:44 am

Fedya wrote:I have a feeling that the right choice in one of the two bottom corners was for me to play a pincer attack, but I've taken to avoiding them recently.

Rather than pincers, I'd be thinking first and foremost about the attachment underneath against a one-space high approach. Gives you a nice solid position in the corner, and in the simplest joseki you can even blunt the influence of Black's walls by playing a nice low strong stone towards them.

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Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:16 am

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
$$Bc I prefer white here
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc I prefer white here $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O . X . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . O . | $$ | . . O , X . . 1 . , . . . 3 X , O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . X . . . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

#Me too.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc No ladder $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . O O . O . X . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X X X . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . 5 4 O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 2 3 . . O . | $$ | . . O , X . . 1 . , . . . . X , O . . | $$ | . O X X . . . . . . X . 7 . . X X O . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The ladder does not work.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:30 am

At move 36, something aound R10 is huge. ( Actually, O5 first, then the right side )

Yes, Leela preferred O5 but also like R11. I had been thinking about R9, and would have thought R11 was too far away.

Leela also really disliked Q10. By that time, though, I thought I needed to defend the group on the right. After that, the only chance I was going to have to win is if Black blundered. Leela claims that Black's P12 and R12 were both blunders, at least if I understand the analysis correctly.

Post by **Joaz Banbeck** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:40 pm

Fedya wrote:...Leela preferred O5 but also like R11...

Leela sees the weaknesses in black's multiple kiemas.

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Once R11 is in place - and can't be easily ambushed from behind because of O5 - then the further extension up the side is sente to cut the P16/N15 keima.

If black tries to protect by playing in that area himself, he is too cramped and white's natural reply is big.

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Fedya wrote:...Leela also really disliked Q10...

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From black's point of view, if white plays Q10, then R12 is a much better extension from his wall, and it solves the cut keima problem. It is also sente to undermine white's extension.

You have a good game here. As I said before, I prefer white's position.

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:01 pm

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Leela didn't like it when White played Q10 later in the game, as well as Black's P12 and R12 later in the game. N4 was the first place White's winning probability went down, while with Q10 it went down even more to the point that Black was going to have to blunder for White to catch up. Leela considered P12 and R12 blunders.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:10 am

Fedya, how about this as a way of turning your pessimism to your advantage: pretend you are playing with your opponent's position and imagine all the disasters that will soon befall you. So for Black at move 35 like dfan said "I've made two dumb joseki direction choices with my walls without extensions at the top side, the only big potential territory is the lower side (but that's got a gap and open on side), I'm behind in solid territory, I have no komi, there's no white weak group to attack". Then switch back to being white and play to make those dreadful things for Black come true.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:19 am

I actually have had a reasonable amount of success trying to consistently play, rather than the move I think is best, the move that I would least like to see if I were playing the other side. At the very least it tends to lead to more exciting games!

Fedya · Post by **Fedya** » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:45 am

A lot of times when I'm playing, I find myself thinking, "What would stronger players suggest I play?" and then try to play that move.

When I try to figure out where my opponents' weaknesses are, the answers I come up all too often seem not to be the right ones.

I think I've also stated before that I often get surprised by my opponents finding weaknesses I didn't know I had.

Life In 19x19

Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

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Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on

Re: Go is hard when you keep falling behind early on