A beginner's journey

[Ian Butler]

Awesome to read up on your progress!
I'm 18kyu on OGS, maybe we can play a correspondence game?

I understand all too well that live games make you nervous. I have the same thing, I always sweat like a pig playing a live game on OGS. In real life it greatly depends on how the board is developing! But since I tend to be more patient irl, I read better and play better usually.
What is really helping me is playing games against Leela, this is a fairly strong bot (+3d I think) that's handy for analyzing games/moves with. You can play her on different board size with optional komi, handicap... Playing a robot doesn't make me nervous, so I can concentrate fully on the game (of course, this doesn't help facing your fears :p)

Playing games is probably the best way to improve, especially if you read well, so keep doing that! I get a lot out of books, but also out of reviewing games. I'd rather play one game and review it than play three consecutive games. Review doesn't even have to be super-detailed. Sometimes I just go look over a group I lost and then go back a few moves until I find what move it was that I missed, where did it go wrong and why?

I just finished GGPB 2 and the problems get tougher near the end, so I'm definitely gonna reread a few times. I think your approach is good, slow but surely. I may have read it a bit too quickly.

Anyway, good luck on your objectives!

[MysteryFTG]

Thank you for your motivating comment!

We can absolutely play correspondence on OGS, just send me an invite. My username is in my profile.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who has trouble being calm during live games. I guess it'll get better the more I play, but right now it's holding me back a little bit as I can't just play a few games every now and then.

[MysteryFTG]

Again, I`m late for my "weekly" update. But at least I'm still playing

As usual, I'm not playing enough games. I'm trying to play more live games, but my nervousness is really getting to me every time.
With 9x9 on GoQuest I managed to get it under control after about 50 games, so I'm hoping I'll have the same result on 19x19...but for some reason it's much worse.
Right now I'm trying to have a goal for each game like use something new I've learned to get used to new concepts. Let's see if that helps.

But I still managed to play a live game today, where I had a situation I didn't handle correctly but I can't figure out what I should have done differently.

https://lifein19x19.com/download/file.php?id=9409

I feel like I really handled move 32 wrong, but I'm not sure what I did wrong. Play 49 at 51 and then...something? I don't know.
Also the 3-3 invasion at 131 didn't work at all. I'm still trying to figure out when I can successfully play that and when I shouldn't.
I still kind of used the messed up invasion with a ko to reduce white's territory in the end, so it wasn't a complete waste?

247 and 253: Are they even necessary?

2018-04-05-Zura528-MysteryFTG - Copy.sgf

(5.53 KiB) Downloaded 989 times

[EdLee]

Hi FTG,

Double hane H14.

L16 atari first. Then, you're guaranteed to capture either stone.
In other words, you have Miai of { J18, M17 }.

This take is premature and you have a local shape problem.
Just connect at K15.
The K15 cut is always an issue you need to keep track of,
ever since you jumped at --
if you simply extend on to J13, then no cut at K15.

Locally, you get bad shape because of a series of moves:
unaware of shape issue ; missing L16 atari ; not connecting at K15 is the final local mistake.

Foundation; fundamental.

Play 49 at 51 and then...something? I don't know.

L14 is better than the game move, and reduces 1 W liberty.
M14 is one candidate.

Bad. Throwing good money at bad.

Bad shape ( bad empty triangle ), slow.

127 study why this move is bad.

130 Does W need this ?

Also the 3-3 invasion at 131 didn't work at all. I'm still trying to figure out when I can successfully play that and when I shouldn't.

This requires study & experience & Go exercises.

138 D18.

146 W confused.

147 B confused.

166 W confused ; similar mistake as 127.

167 Gote, slow, small. Fixing P3 is huge.

168 W confused. P3 is huge.

169 through 175 Both B & W confused.

Study why ( 127, 166, 175 ) are all bad.

[WiseMouse]

Hello FTG,

I sympathize with not playing enough games. I love to do go problems and study patterns but find logging onto a server and playing hard. A method I've found helpful is implementation intention. If I just say I will play a game every day I won't follow through. But if I instead say I will play a game after I do my life and death for the day, I have a much easier time starting a game. Another way to say it is: if I finish my problems, then I will play a game. I just learned about this method, but I've played on three of the four days this week. This is instead of once a week which had been my habit.

With respect to the proverbs on not thinking too hard and losing a bunch of games quickly. A good middle ground starting out would be to spend thirty seconds per move UNLESS it becomes a matter of life and death. In that case, take your time. The meaning behind the proverb is to prune out super basic mistakes e.g. ladders, caught on the second line, not seeing atari. All of these you'll stop doing without much effort when it has happened to you ten times.


You are absolutely correct that how one reads is very important. One of the amazing things is how complicated looking positions can fall apart effortlessly if you apply the right methodology.

When living or killing: begin with the simplest moves. When refuted by the opponent, examine the line where you play at the refuting move first. Repeat until solved.
When living: maximize eye space.
When killing: minimize eye space.

If you want to post a few problems that you find tricky I can show you what I mean.

[MysteryFTG]

127, 166, 175
I guess all those moves are completely unnecessary, because the stones are safely connected already and so the moves should only be played if the other player tries to break the connection.


Double hane H14.
I'm still having trouble seeing quickly when I can safely double hane without creating a double atari cutting point, so I often avoid it. I should play it more often to see when it works and when it doesn't.


Empty Triangle: I already try to avoid it, but sometimes one slips through. Not sure if it's -always- a bad idea to play, but currently I'm trying to not play it when I notice I'm about to put down an empty triangle.

I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough, but after :w180: that wasn't the case anymore I guess.

Thank you very much for your detailed analysis, Ed!




WiseMouse, thanks for the advice. I already had a couple of problems I couldn't solve or even understand the solution in Graded Go Problems Vol.2 and on a couple of websites.
When I come across one again, I'll make a note and ask here.

I'll also give your scheduling idea a try. I do go problems almost every day, so it should be possible to play a game after that.
Taking a bit more time per move also seems good to avoid some of the obvious mistakes Ed pointed out above

[EdLee]

127, 166, 175
I guess all those moves are completely unnecessary, because the stones are safely connected already and so the moves should only be played if the other player tries to break the connection.

Correct.

Double hane H14.
I should play it more often to see when it works and when it doesn't.

Yes.

Empty Triangle: Not sure if it's -always- a bad idea to play,

Certainly not always bad; but often is.

I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough.

Nope. If W pushes through on 168, W is unstoppable. Your local shape crumbles. Good to study.

[MysteryFTG]

I never even saw P3 as an issue, I thought responding at P2 was enough.

Nope. If W pushes through on 168, W is unstoppable. Your local shape crumbles. Good to study.

I always felt in situations like this P3, if I have Q3 after 115, it's safe. Kind of like a net, that's why I never played P3. But it seems like I'm very much mistaken on that one. I'll absolutely look into that and try to spot it in my future games.

[EdLee]

The problem was 111. That was your last chance to fix P3.
( There are earlier local mistakes, but 111 was the last chance. )
W could immediately push at P3 on 112 and your local shape collapses.

Related foundation shapes: [sl=SqueezingOutTheToothpaste]toothpaste[/sl], SmallGaps

[MysteryFTG]

It's been one month since my last progress update, so here I am. I didn't have a lot of time to dedicate to Go for the past two weeks, so I didn't post any games, but I'll get back to it.

What went well:
-did a lot of tsumego, both easy and some more difficult ones
-played more 19x19 than I ever did. I got a bunch of daily games going for almost two weeks
-bought the first 5 LevelUP! books after I read several recommendations for them and I wasn't disappointed. Already finished 1+2

What didn't go so well:
-Graded Go Problems Vol2 is more difficult than expected at my level. I'm about 50 problems from finishing it, but it's taking some time
-My nervousness issue isn't going away, but it might be getting better. more on that below
-I'm having trouble working with non-problem books, also more on that below

When playing live 19x19 games I'm trying to rotate through the different servers. But I'm actually having some trouble finding games outside of KGS and IGS.
Correspondence on OGS and DGS works fine, but I haven't been able to find a game on Fox, Tygem or Wbaduk and getting a live game on OGS also takes much longer than on KGS/IGS, so I'm mostly sticking to those for now.

My rank is still low and fluctuating, but going up in general. According to the various servers I'm somewhere between 24k and 17k, which seems about right. If I was playing on just one server I'd probably be much more focused on that one rank.


On being nervous while playing:
I've basically forced myself to play one 19x19 game every day (until I got really busy) which was very interesting. I think I played 15 this month. I'm not 100% sure my anxiety is getting better with each game, but it might. Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue, that might become a problem. After all, it's a hobby and should be fun and enjoyable. But right now I can barely focus on playing a (relaxing, ha!) game of Go, because I have to pay attention to my breathing and overall tension.
I can't really explain it. I don't have the problem in correspondence games and I don't have it vs. the computer. Against AI, Leela for example, I play calmly and I'd love to be this calm vs. another human player.
I kind of know the issue from computer/video games. I've played competitive Street Fighter for a while and did endgame raiding and PvP in a couple of MMORPGs plus some other online/vs. games. There I also was hesitant to engage in activities with or vs. other players and experienced some nervousness when actually playing vs. strangers, which always seemed like a disproportional reaction.
But when playing Go, the effect is much, much stronger, which seems super strange because Go should be more relaxing
It doesn't matter if my opponent is way stronger, the same level or much weaker. Even if I'm winning by a huge, huge lead I'm sitting there, shaking.
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.


Books:
While I do have a bunch of books on my shelf (way too many for my level), I mostly just do the tsumego ones for now. But I'd also like to get at least a bit more of a grasp on the overall concepts with easy beginner books like Opening Theory Made Easy or The Second Book of Go. But I'm not really able to work well through them. Just reading casually doesn't seem to do much. I understand the concepts (roughly) while reading, but when playing a game, I don't remember anything. The other extreme would probably be to really study every concept the books explain, go through the examples on a real goban and try out one new concept at a time in live games until it sticks. Unfortunately it seems I'm a slow learner and I'm still struggling with the early chapters of Opening Theory made easy...at this rate it'll take me many many months to get through just this one small book. So my rate of improvement seems a bit low.
The other problem is being able to judge if a book is appropriate for my level. There are a bunch of different lists for recommended levels online but they vary heavily and also often differ even from the book itself.
Or should I just re-read books like Opening Theory Made Easy again and again until it somehow sticks?
Right now I'm thinking I should just play more and do tsumego, which probably makes sense.

But this is also a general problem. I often get advice for situations in games, there are often helpful links or I find something myself, but it just seems too much to remember. It makes sense when reading an article about a topic but there's just so much of it, I really don't know if I'm supposed to remember everything instantly or work through it diligently. At this point it feels like I can barely remember the 3-3 invasion and that I shouldn't make an empty triangle.



Rate of Improvement:
I keep reading about most players just blasting through the early kyu levels, but I'm not really seeing that effect at about 4 months in. Considering some extremely tenacious players have managed to reach 1d in 12 months, I kind of feel like I'm at the opposite end.
I'm pretty sure the reason is the lack of games played, which brings me back to the issue of being too nervous to be able to just sit down and play a game every day. But I still do at least an hour of go-related studying every day, mostly go problems of varying difficulty.


Well, that's it for me for right now. I hope I'm not sounding like a broken record at this point.
Even if it might not sound like it, I really do enjoy Go a lot and I truly want to improve, because even at my level it's really great to be able to make more sense of the board and see things I couldn't a few weeks ago.

[Knotwilg]

About rank:

My rank is still low and fluctuating, but going up in general. According to the various servers I'm somewhere between 24k and 17k, which seems about right. If I was playing on just one server I'd probably be much more focused on that one rank. So my rate of improvement seems a bit low. I keep reading about most players just blasting through the early kyu levels, but I'm not really seeing that effect at about 4 months in. Considering some extremely tenacious players have managed to reach 1d in 12 months, I kind of feel like I'm at the opposite end

About anxiety

Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue (of anxiety), that might become a problem. (...)
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.

About advice
I often get advice for situations in games, there are often helpful links or I find something myself, but it just seems too much to remember.

Many here, including me, have similar experiences and feelings, regardless of our rank and improvement rate. Your anxiety comes from the fear that your result will not live up to your expectation of improving at a certain rate. This expectation is fueled by two things: you devote a lot of time to study (and play); and you see others improve fast. You don't improve as fast as you think you deserve and this frustrates you.

There are a number of things you can do about it:

1) If your winning percentage is your major way to get positive feedback, you should aim to directly impact it, instead of relying on the indirect impact of study. I've written about this here: https://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FBasicLawsOfGamesmanship. I believe this will take away a lot of the anxiety too, since it is a program with very clear and simple tasks to perform and which I believe will have a big impact on your results. And it also addresses your third issue of information overload, by progressively focussing on the one single thing that will improve your results next.

2) You can also try to get your positive feedback in another way: by finding a teacher. If you're susceptible to pats on the back from a teacher, you will know you improve (or not) regardless of results. And playing a teacher will be safe, not leading to anxiety.

3) Last but not least, you can try and convert your anxiety into a source of power. Anxiety is a negative way to channel emotion. You must find out which emotions lead to this anxiety and instead of ignoring them, tap into this resource. This way, you can turn "fear of losing" into "desire to win". You can turn "fear of being ridiculed by an anonymous psychopath" into "a vow to maintain a strong character even in the face of trolls". Here you need a psychologist more than a go teacher but often you can already do the shrink job yourself. The story telling of "I'm not worth it" can hide emotional traumas of long ago. What are they? This is something only you know. From the answer, you can start a more positive journey, in life and in go. I've been there and in many respects still am underway.

Good luck.

[Bill Spight]

About anxiety

Still, it's uncomfortable to play and if I don't find a way to solve the issue (of anxiety), that might become a problem. (...)
For now I can continue to experiment with different methods to calm myself down, but if it persists, it's just too stressful to keep doing it.

3) Last but not least, you can try and convert your anxiety into a source of power. Anxiety is a negative way to channel emotion. You must find out which emotions lead to this anxiety and instead of ignoring them, tap into this resource. This way, you can turn "fear of losing" into "desire to win". You can turn "fear of being ridiculed by an anonymous psychopath" into "a vow to maintain a strong character even in the face of trolls". Here you need a psychologist more than a go teacher but often you can already do the shrink job yourself. The story telling of "I'm not worth it" can hide emotional traumas of long ago. What are they? This is something only you know. From the answer, you can start a more positive journey, in life and in go. I've been there and in many respects still am underway.

Good luck.

Our drama coach in high school was quite good, having been an assistant director on Broadway. She told us it was a problem if we did not feel stage fright, because it was a source of energy that we could harness for our performance. She also had a trick in such cases of planting her left leg firmly on the stage. That gave a physical sense of strength. In general, as Knotwilg says, negative emotions can be a source of power. Go is not a very physical activity, and slamming down the stones does not necessarily make for good play. However, Laura Huxley, in her book, You are Not the Target, talks about using negative emotional energy for physical exercise. In social situations, where you do not want to be noticed particularly, she recommends isotonic exercises, tensing muscles without movement for 10 sec. or so, and then relaxing those muscles for another 10 sec. Like planting your foot firmly on the ground, this is a way of harnessing negative emotional energy.

[WiseMouse]

Hey Mystery,

As one of the players who shot from beginner to mid single digit kyu in six months, I studied and played a lot. I was in my senior year of high school and I had the time to play an average of five games a day with twenty-five-minute main time. I also read a couple of books a week and did many problems. There is some talent that goes into the speed one learns things, but you are correct that playing more will speed you along.


As a suggestion to game anxiety, consider joining the open study room. https://openstudyroom.org/

They have a lot of active players in the DDK range, and it could give you a chance to play games with soon to be friends instead of random internet strangers. Be sure to join the discord as well, I'm often in general or tsumego channel.

[MysteryFTG]

Thanks everyone for your replies!

Knotwilg:
Interesting ideas, I'll try to test everything out you've suggested.
I'm trying to have many ways of tracking my progress and giving myself a goal for live games that is not depending on winning. For live games I play, I'm trying to have a goal, or goals, that I can complete and while I do track my winning percentage, I don't pay that much attention to it, because there are a lot of other things such as number of tsumego solved, time needed to re-solve easy tsumego books etc. This is giving me constant feedback on my progress.
But from your link, I'll try to follow especially 1+4.

I'll absolutely try to work on my anxiety, find out what causes it and hopefully turn it into a strength. With my reaction to a live online game being this unreasonably strong, I'm sure it's something I should work on.



Bill:
I'm actually doing pretty much the exact exercise you've mentioned when playing. Sometimes more, sometimes less, depending on my stress level. If I don't so it, I can feel me getting more and more nervous until the point where I'm physically shaking. I'm not "actually" nervous, I know that there's no point or reason in being nervous, but it's kind of an automatic reaction.



WiseMouse:
I guess you've spent at least 4-5 hours a day on Go in that time? Right now I'm maybe at 1 hour, so if I consider that, I guess my speed isn't that slow. To reach the amount of study/game time you had, I would need 2-3 years at my current pace, which puts my current progress into perspective.

I already joined openstudyroom a while ago, but I haven't used it yet, because I'm not quite sure how to utilize it properly. Do I just request games from random people?



I wish some of my friends were playing Go, but I've not been successful in getting anyone interested in the game. The internet is great, but I'd also love to be able to talk about and play Go in person more. A weekly meeting about a one hour drive away from here is all I could find. I'll try and go there when I've got a bit of free time on my hands.

[WiseMouse]

Thanks everyone for your replies!
I already joined openstudyroom a while ago, but I haven't used it yet, because I'm not quite sure how to utilize it properly. Do I just request games from random people?

Yep, just click on the game request channel and say. 'Any one want a game?' If you want you can further specify, ddk league for example.