Kim Seongryong and the "Me Too" movement

[Uberdude]

A news clip from Korean TV station JTBC:

[John Fairbairn]

Here is a story which has some striking parallels. There are also striking differences, of course, and legal systems vary, too, but it does show the sort of difficulties that have to be contended with when reporting such cases or potential cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43825624

And social media just piles up the difficulties.

[sorin]

(Removing the link I posted here earlier, maybe will repost once more official info is available)

[Kirby]

Here is a story which has some striking parallels. There are also striking differences, of course, and legal systems vary, too, but it does show the sort of difficulties that have to be contended with when reporting such cases or potential cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43825624

And social media just piles up the difficulties.

I think it would be more similar if the alleged victim made the case public, as is the case here.

He said in other cases victims had come forward after a celebrity's arrest and charges had been made public.

In this case, the alleged victim put forth the allegations to the public in a pro forum - it wasn't a case of confidential police charges being leaked or anything like that.

You can argue whether or not the victim is being honest, but that's the case with any such story brought to the public like this. A number of articles directly quote the alleged victim's post.

Yes, a person called out by "MeToo" has their reputation put to risk. Of course it is only justified if the victim is telling the truth. Same with any such case these days (Bill Cosby, etc.).

[Uberdude]

Does South Korea give the right of anonymity to complainants/victims of sexual offences, as we do here in England? The reports I've seen include identifying details so fail at keeping her anonymous. In England I think that would be a criminal offence [Edit: unless she's waived anonymity, the situation here seems unclear]: the former editor of the Sun newspaper was prosecuted for publishing a photo of a victim that although pixelated and modified in an attempt to disguise her identity was not sufficient as those familiar with the source photo could still identify her. The 2nd sentence of http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-35931431 suggests they do have anonymity, but the rest of the article and linked WSJ one suggest enforcement and culture could be rather different to in England.

On the other side, there is no anonymity for those accused, but with cases like Cliff Richard's that is a topical issue (Cliff wants it). When anonymity for rape victims (since expanded to other sexual crimes) was introduced in 1970 it was also for defendants but that was repealed in 1988. Some viewpoints: https://www.theguardian.com/society/wom ... -heres-why and https://www.barcouncil.org.uk/media/406 ... _essay.pdf.

[Kirby]

As I understand, the alleged victim's original post was not anonymous (though, it was on a forum for Korean pros), and early articles (which you can still find online) state her name directly. When some reporting sites contacted her for comment, she said she wished to remain anonymous, though, with the details given all over the internet, it's obviously not that anonymous. Apparently, the alleged victim was even being contacted by people outside of Korea and the go world, due to all of the MeToo stuff, which probably isn't pleasant.

I don't know the law in Korea in regard to this situation, but I would be very surprised if anyone were prosecuted due to the reporting. People really get on news stories in Korea. Several years back, a lady's life was severely impacted since everyone was spreading her picture around since her dog pooped in public transit (https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_new ... l_is_n.php). People contacted her personally, gave her death threats, etc. It spread like wildfire since everyone wanted to share the gossip.

Regarding the current situation, it's considerable to just ask the alleged victim what her preference is in regard to public discussion, but on the other hand, that could come across as a sensitive topic to discuss with her, unless you are close friends or something.

[Kirby]

I'll add that, in general, people are more into other people's business in Korea from my perspective. I happen to be in Korea right now, and just today on the subway, a girl wasn't really following her mother's instructions. In America, I'd consider that to be an issue between the mom and her parent, regardless of how I felt the mother or parent should behave. But what I observed today was that some old lady stranger felt obliged to reprimand the child, grab her by the arm, and tell her that she should listen to her mother better. She lectured her for some time, as the mom started to chat on her phone.

It's a difference in culture, I think. When someone does something you think is socially wrong in Korea, people feel inclined to voice their opinion to strangers, especially if they have seniority in terms of age.

That's not exactly the situation in this thread, I suppose, but given these types of cultural differences, I'm not surprised to see gossip spread like wildfire in these types of scenarios, regardless of any notion of privacy that one might have.

[sorin]

There is a petition to sign, for those who want to help raise awareness of this issue, and hopefully reduce the chance of these kind of things happening again in the future:
https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/metoo

[Uberdude]

That is a poorly-worded petition. By signing it, what are you agreeing with?
- Rape and sexual assault are serious crimes and I strongly condemn them (I agree)
- I wish to signal sympathy and support for the (alleged) victim (I agree)
- Kim is definitely guilty (I disagree, and even if I did due process is important)
- Resolving this quickly is more important than resolving it thoroughly and fairly (I disagree)
- "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't matter (I disagree, but this doesn't mean I don't believe the claims, it's a complex issue)
- This is a simple issue and bandwagons are fun (I disagree)
- This should be widely discussed (I'm not sure)

[sorin]

That is a poorly-worded petition. By signing it, what are you agreeing with?
- Rape and sexual assault are serious crimes and I strongly condemn them (I agree)
- I wish to signal sympathy and support for the (alleged) victim (I agree)
- Kim is definitely guilty (I disagree, and even if I did due process is important)
- Resolving this quickly is more important than resolving it thoroughly and fairly (I disagree)
- "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't matter (I disagree, but this doesn't mean I don't believe the claims, it's a complex issue)
- This is a simple issue and bandwagons are fun (I disagree)
- This should be widely discussed (I'm not sure)

It is indeed not ideally formulated, but the intention is clear: raising awareness of this issue and trying to reduce further such incidents.
Cho Hye-yeon 9p signed the petition too.

[Charlie]

It is indeed not ideally formulated, but the intention is clear: raising awareness of this issue and trying to reduce further such incidents.

I disagree. The English translation of the petition explicitly includes the phrase: "and urge Kim Seong-ryong to apologize to said victims." To me, that phrase is entirely unambiguous. It says that, by signing the petition, one is declaring their belief that Kim Seong-ryong is guilty.

That petition is not merely "not ideally formulated," it is extremely objectionable according to the presumption of innocence that underpins modern justice.

[ben0]

Let's get some things clear here :

- It is a rape case
- It happened 9 years ago, Kim Seongryong cannot be brought to court because the Korean law does not allow prosecution 6 month after the events.
- However, if Kim Seongryong wants to bring his own truth and wants to say that the victim is lying, than the victim will be allowed to defend herself with proofs
- I won't discuss here the proofs the victim has but the fact that Kim Seongryong (and his lawyer) has been silent for a week says a lot.

About a more moral point of view :

- I do believe in innocent until proven guilty and I do believe that 10 criminals outside prison are better than 1 innocent inside prison.
- However I do not believe in those principles anymore when it comes to sexual harassement and/or sexual assault simply because the justice system is completely broken regarding those issues. We ask to the victim to go to the police, sure, then what ? You have a policeman completely untrained about such issues, asking completely inappropriate questions and doubting the victim. As I said on a facebook post, this is the rape culture (check it out on google) that the world where the victim lives in shame and the rapist walks without any kind of guilt.
- It may be innocent until proven guilty, but trust the victims. Thousands of cases of sexual assaults and harassment but of course people chose to talk about the handful of false ones. That's also part of the rape culture.

About the petition :

- It was poorly worded, then a text was add (in english) to help understand the case a bit more. The petition is not a goal but a mean, a mean to bring awareness to such issues.

- This topic is perfectly named, because it all started with the break out of Metoo in Korea (few month after the Weinstein scandal) it started with members of the government and businessmen. Few weeks ago, many female pros met at Kiwon (Korean Baduk Federation) to discuss about their stories. Needless to say it is not pretty. The story currently talked about is the one making most noise as of now but it is only the first of many.

[Javaness2]

It is an emotive issue. On one hand, you have the fact that a lot of justice systems are really injust in these cases, but on the other hand you have to accept that some victims are not actually real victims. Recent topical example here http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-43739327 40 years ago this would have ended with the court being bombed, but now society has moved on, and we instead discuss things like apropriate behaviour in relationships.

With the advent of the metoo movement, my memory is jogged. 20 years ago, or around that time, I've heard tell that certain professionals visiting the EGC would invite young women to come to study with them in whichever country they came from. Couldn't happen now.

[Uberdude]

it is extremely objectionable according to the presumption of innocence that underpins modern justice.

Set against that, I also find objectionable to justice that under South Korean law the truth is a not a defence against defamation. Even in England, which is a popular destination for libel tourism, we had the defence of "fair comment" which turned into "honest opinion" a few years ago.

And then there's the wider context of sexual assault being an under-reported crime with few convictions, victims being afraid to speak out for fear of stigma, public attacks on character, trauma, unsympathetic police/courts etc. By its nature it's a serious crime, but often the evidence isn't better than "he said, she said" (particularly around consent), so proof beyond reasonable doubt is hard. From reading a few articles it seems the culture/law in South Korea is even worse for victims than in much of Europe/America, though with Me Too hopefully that is changing and there are now calls to revise the defamation law. So a petition raising these issues, calling for a proper investigation (not swept under the carpet) and giving support to victims in a considered manner is something I would support.

[Wrote above before ben0 posted, update for him]:
Isn't the 6 month for a civil case, the statute of limitations for rape is 10 years, so still (just) within it. (But I understand she may not wish to go that route).

[Kirby]

Are you sure about the 6 month thing? I recall reading that the alleged victim wasn't interested in making him go to jail, but might press charges if Kim doesn't apologize since it's been less than 10 years, which i think is the limit. IIRC, this is from words of the victim's friend.