Territory inside territory question.

If you're new to the game and have questions, post them here.
Post Reply
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Joe,
I have to look more into the capture game. The rule book that came with my go set did not explain that, it was very vague.
The capture game is great for your phase, because you don't need to play out all the way to the end, or deal with scoring. It's like a 'quick draw' or 'sudden death' version of Go. Of course, it's not Go, but it's a nice 'warm-up' exercise.

Here's a free, HTML5-based browser version robot, regular Go:

Cosumi

You can pick various board sizes.
Top right corner: '1 Click' - '2 Click' toggles:
'2 Click' means to confirm your move with a second tap,
which is good for small phone screens. :)
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Would the black still be dead? W:36 B:0?
Good question. Yes, and yes. :tmbup:
Top
Joe621
Dies in gote
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by Joe621 »

One more question regarding territory. Is it considered a territory when there is all diagonals. Like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Board 1
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | X . . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Joe,

Good question.
Your :black: shape is un-settled. It depends on what happens next.

Example 1: B dead; zero points for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . |
$$ | X . O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | X . O . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Example 2: B alive, with 3 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B :w2:, :w4:, :w6: tenuki
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O . O . . . . |
$$ | X 3 O . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . |
$$ | X 5 O . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
Joe621
Dies in gote
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by Joe621 »

So a "territory" with all diagonals is not a real territory?

What about with just one diagonal like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Still unsettled :black: shape -- depends on who goes first here:

B dead, zero points for B:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . |
$$ | X X . O . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
B lives with 3 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O . . . . . |
$$ | X X O . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . O . . . |
$$ | 1 . X O . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . |
$$ | X X . O . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

It's not about diagonals ; it has to do with the overall shape.
More examples very helpful. Keep posting. :)
Top
Joe621
Dies in gote
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by Joe621 »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X B . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Okay so this would be considered a territory? ^

But this not:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Joe,

Your two shapes in post 23 are identical, in terms of life-and-death.
The :bc: stone makes no difference; it doesn't affect the life-and-death or points.

What matters is who goes first:

Left: B dead, 0 points for B
Right: B alive, 3 points for B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ | . X B O . B X . |
$$ | 1 . X O . X . 2 |
$$ | . X X O . X X . |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Left: B dead, 0 points for B
Right: B alive, 3 points for B
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ | . X . O . . X . |
$$ | 1 . X O . X . 2 |
$$ | . X X O . X X . |
$$ | X X . O . . X X |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Top
Joe621
Dies in gote
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue May 01, 2018 12:30 pm
GD Posts: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re:

Post by Joe621 »

EdLee wrote:Hi Joe,

Your two shapes in post 23 are identical, in terms of life-and-death.
The :bc: stone makes no difference; it doesn't affect the life-and-death or points.

What matters is who goes first:

I know what you mean. Depends on whether black or white plays at A3 correct? That would determine whether or not black lives or dies. If white plays A3 black dies etc.


Obviously neither player would let this board emd like this but I was just wondering if black would get territory points for this if the game was finished:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Last edited by Joe621 on Wed May 02, 2018 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X B . . . . . . |
$$ | . X a . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X B . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
If the game ends here, B has 4 points locally;
the (a) spot is irrelevant to the 4 points.
But the :bc: spots are relevant to the 4 points.
( See also post 28, below. )
Top
Pio2001
Lives in gote
Posts: 418
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:13 pm
Rank: kgs 5 kyu
GD Posts: 0
KGS: Pio2001
Has thanked: 9 times
Been thanked: 83 times

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by Pio2001 »

Hi joe621,
The rules and the strategy are two different things.

The rules tells that a territory are a set of connected empty intersections (horizontally or vertically) that are in contact with stones of one colour only (horizontally or vertically). So, in your example, all the intersections on the board are black's territory (inside AND outside), since there are no white stones !

The strategy is another matter, and we use to take shortcuts and tell that a given shape is, or is not territory, because we can see in advance if it is going to be captured or not, and if it can keeps its inner space completely free of enemy stones, thus turning it into "territory" according to the strict definition of the rule.

The British Go Associations has a lot of online resources. If the rules of play that you got with your set are unclear, maybe it can help you : https://britgo.org/howtoplaygo#s1
Top
User avatar
EdLee
Honinbo
Posts: 8859
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:49 pm
GD Posts: 312
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Has thanked: 349 times
Been thanked: 2070 times

Post by EdLee »

Hi Joe,

This may clear up some of your uncertainties.

Examples:
In all 3 cases, W has 12 points.

Unsettled shape:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O . X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]
With :b1:, B has 8 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O 1 X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X . . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]
With :w1: and :b2:, B has 7 points:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ ---------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O O O O O O O O O O O O |
$$ | O 1 X X X X X X X X X O |
$$ | O X 2 . . . . . . . X O |
$$ ---------------------------[/go]
( See also why the :bc: stones affect B's points, in post 26 above. )
Top
dfan
Gosei
Posts: 1598
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:49 am
Rank: AGA 2k Fox 3d
GD Posts: 61
KGS: dfan
Has thanked: 891 times
Been thanked: 534 times
Contact:
Contact dfan

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by dfan »

Joe621 wrote:So a "territory" with all diagonals is not a real territory?

What about with just one diagonal like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Other people have answered this particular question, but I just want to keep emphasizing that
  • territory consists of the empty spaces surrounded by live stones;
  • stones are alive if they can't be captured;
  • if your opponent thinks your stones are dead, that means he can capture them, and you have the right to make him prove it.
That's it. Nothing about eyes, or rules about "all diagonals" or "one diagonal". You and your opponent should just play it out. You will learn a lot more from that than by memorizing the status-according-to-knowledgable-players of various shapes.
Top
Bill Spight
Honinbo
Posts: 10905
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:24 pm
Has thanked: 3651 times
Been thanked: 3373 times

Re: Territory inside territory question.

Post by Bill Spight »

Joe621 wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X B . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
Okay so this would be considered a territory? ^

But this not:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . . . |
$$ | X X . . . . . . |
$$ -------------------[/go]
As others have indicated, your questions can be answered by playing the positions out. :)

So the thing to do is to play everything out. Either by area scoring or perhaps by a form of the Capture Game. Then things will become clear. Or at least clearer. :)
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.
Top
Post Reply

Return to “Beginners”