Territory inside territory question.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Fri May 04, 2018 6:40 pm

If the two stones highlighted in red weren't there would that be the boundary line for white?

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri May 04, 2018 6:55 pm

Hi Joe,

I see your question.

But, first: are you having trouble with territory scoring on this board ?
( Other than the unfinished ko. )
Bill already clearly marked every territory point in his post 43.

Repeat: are you able to do territory scoring on this board ?
If not, where are you having problem, exactly ?

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Fri May 04, 2018 7:11 pm

EdLee wrote:Hi Joe,

I see your question.

But, first: are you having trouble with territory scoring on this board ?
( Other than the unfinished ko. )
Bill already clearly marked every territory point in his post 43.

Repeat: are you able to do territory scoring on this board ?
If not, where are you having problem, exactly ?

No, not having any problems. I was just wondering if I was right about White's boundary if those two marked white stone where gone.

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri May 04, 2018 7:27 pm

Hi Joe,

The problem with your new diagram is that it's still unfinished.
In addition to the unfinished ko (a), whoever gets (b) affects the score:

White gains 1 point ( territory scoring ) if it's White's turn:

But if B gets (b), then W doesn't get that 1 point:

EdLee · Post by **EdLee** » Fri May 04, 2018 7:35 pm

Hi Joe,

Is it clear ?

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Fri May 04, 2018 7:39 pm

I know that its unfinished but assuming that both players were stupid, made two passes, and didn't see that option to make a play at (b). In that case the boundary would be where I highlighted in pink. Correct?

Or assuming black plays at (b).

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri May 04, 2018 8:28 pm

Joe621, I am not sure that the terms, wall and boundary are going to be of much help understanding territory.

Joe621 wrote:I know that its unfinished but assuming that both players were stupid, . . .

Like a lot of words, territory has more than one meaning, even in go. But the basic idea of territory depends upon neither player wishing to play in the other player's territory. So for starters it is best to determine territory at the end of play. Then what is territory should be clear. It does not help to remove living stones, or to assume that the players are stupid.

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Fri May 04, 2018 9:44 pm

Here is a note that may address your questions.

I have marked the stones which surround the regions of territory. Unmarked stones may also be necessary, but the marked stones are the ones that indicate the edges of territory.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Sat May 05, 2018 2:46 pm

Somebody please explain this bulllshit. Its pissing me off.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sat May 05, 2018 2:53 pm

I don't know how the program arrived at +48 exactly, but Black can make a whole lot of trouble in the lower right if he plays first. Like I said before, especially as a beginner, you should play it all out and see what happens. This situation is probably too unsettled for a computer to make a good call on how to score it (which means it is too unsettled for you to make a good call!). I'm sorry that it is causing you stress.

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Sat May 05, 2018 3:03 pm

dfan wrote:I don't know how the program arrived at +48 exactly, but Black can make a whole lot of trouble in the lower right if he plays first. Like I said before, especially as a beginner, you should play it all out and see what happens. This situation is probably too unsettled for a computer to make a good call on how to score it (which means it is too unsettled for you to make a good call!). I'm sorry that it is causing you stress.

I played it out and now it seems to be the correct score. xD

Joe621 · Post by **Joe621** » Sat May 05, 2018 3:09 pm

Thank you.

Tryss · Post by **Tryss** » Sat May 05, 2018 4:07 pm

I'm pretty sur the computer count +48 for black because he think the bottom white group is in seki (and that the top white stones are dead)

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Sat May 05, 2018 7:11 pm

Joe621 wrote:Somebody please explain this bulllshit. Its pissing me off.

The bottom right is not settled, so the game cannot be accurately scored. Even by the computer.

Now, it's not your fault that you don't know that the bottom right is unsettled, you are just learning to play go. And plainly the question of scoring is irritating, to say the least.

Let me suggest a way to play, at least for now, that will allow you to score the game with no problems, even though more experienced players might not stop play yet.

Do not pass when your opponent has dead stones on the board. Capture them.

Then, when both players pass, assume that all stones on the board are alive. Then use area scoring and count each stone on the board as well as each point of territory. It is important to use area scoring, otherwise your results when you play correctly may well not be accurate.

I am not saying that you would have ended play when you did, but, to show how it's done, let me score that board in that fashion.

I have marked the points of territory.

Black has 29 pts. on the left side, plus 16 pts. in the top right corner, plus 2 pts. in the bottom right corner, for 47 pts.

White has 8 pts. on the top side plus 17 pts. in the bottom right, for 25 pts.

Black wins by 22 pts.

Now, if you play this way, Black will go ahead and capture the White stones on the top side. The play in the bottom right is not so obvious, perhaps. If neither player plays there, then Black will get 56 pts. and White will get 17 pts., and Black will win by 39 pts.

What is the correct score? There is none. The game ended in an unscorable position. But if you play this way you won't drive yourself crazy.

dfan · Post by **dfan** » Sun May 06, 2018 4:11 am

Tryss wrote:I'm pretty sur the computer count +48 for black because he think the bottom white group is in seki (and that the top white stones are dead)

Indeed! I was so focused on explaining the bottom right corner (and the picture was too big for me to see the whole board at once) that I didn't notice the top group wasn't connected

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