Uberdude's journal

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 23, 2018 2:15 am

Over the last few days I've been doing some LeelaZero-assisted go problems and reviews with my wife (Sai, yes really, she's about 1d). She's not really played go for the past few years and finds competition stressful. She has quite a contrary, fighting and un-textbookish style which meant her teachers would dismiss her moves as bad. Sometimes I think they were right, but sometimes they were wrong and she likes that LeelaZero often seems to say her moves are actually good

. To take an example, a problem from the Kiseido problems for dan players books, on opening/middlegame. I've long had doubts about the correctness of the answers in books like these (particularly in opening vs life & death or tesuji where the answer relies less on judgement, the blurb says compiled by Tadao Sakamaki and Park Michizumi, who are these? translated by Rob van Zeijst 7d), more so now that we know even top pros make loads of bad moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The book gives this shoulder hit as the answer, saying if 2 is at a then black jumps to b.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . a 1 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

But Sai says black is dreaming if he thinks white will be so obedient as she would answer 2 here. But that when she suggested such moves of tenuki-ing a shoulder hit her teachers would say you have to answer the shoulder hit (with block or push). I don't know if she is accurately interpreting and reporting their teaching, but I wouldn't teach that. If it was a 10k student I might simplify it to that, but for a 1d pre-AlphaGo I would say block or push is normal and tenuki is kinda wacky so probably don't do it but maybe ok if you have a special plan, and post-AlphaGo more readily condone tenuki. So we fire up Lizzie and take a look. Sure enough, LZ says 1 is a mistake, and her 2 is the best answer, by about 5% over block/push

. I don't think we needed super-human bots to tell us this, I expect 2 is well on the radar of high dan amateurs, but it's nice to have such strong teachers at home for free. Interestingly LZ's suggested move was (but I get a different answer when I re-run it now) a nebulous reduction at c (initially was d shoulder hit, which white would pincer), which is the kind of area Sai was thinking about but couldn't decide where. The wrong book answer is e which neither of us nor LZ dreamed of, the moyo is obviously urgent.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . e . . . . X . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , X O . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X O X . | $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . c . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . O , X . . | $$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . O O O . . O . . O X . . | $$ | . X O O O O O X X X . O X . . , X . . | $$ | . X X X . X X . . . . . X . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Another problem Sai disagreed with the book answer.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Black to play $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Book says 1, aiming at the a weakness and gives this continuation. But Sai says black is dreaming to think white would bump with 2 like this and help black make a nice outside, she would kosumi out (LZ would too if local, prefers approach lower right). I agree expecting 2 is a dream, and LZ gives it -7%. She wasn't sure what to play, but liked b, which the book says answer at c and this does make sense to me as preemptive action if you think 1 is good, but LZ would do stuff like attach to lower right 3-4 ("corners then sides then centre" remember!). I wanted to enclose at d as gobbling that stone if possible seemed urgent to me and this is LZ's move (attach at 2 also possible).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Book answer $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O 2 1 c . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . 3 . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

She isn't scared of black's placement immediately:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Sai's "I'm ok as white" continuation $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . 0 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O 7 3 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 5 O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 9 6 . 2 . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

LZ agrees white is playing well here and leading, though says 12 better at more agressive 13, and lean on 13 before 14 (which I helped her choose); her basic idea was kosumi out, squeeze and connect under if black placement so give a dango and then fight with pincer stone. This seems a decent fighting plan, better than being a wimp.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm11 Sai's "I'm ok as white" continuation pt2 $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 1 X O . X . 3 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X O . O 2 . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, and this is a weakness in her thinking which I've learnt to exploit, she can read a sequence like this and see good fighting for white, so black shouldn't make the placement now (LZ says knight enclose outside) and there's a weakness for later. Is the checking extension kosumi exchange good for black? It certainly gives white a bad shape, but also black is split and white's out. In some LZ variations it like to approach and play big moves on lower right, not caring about the upper left white group being reduced to 1 eye and having to escape to centre.

Addendum: However, as a warning against treating LZ's word as gospel, if I make it play the book's 1, then kosumi for white (#2) and next moves all top choices it gives black only 45% to continue at 7 as best move (on 1k playouts).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B LZ blind spot setup? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . 3 . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

However, if 7 is placement here it's happy to block (59%) but then if black "unexpectedly" pushes through white drops to 40%. It wants to connect at 6 and sacrifice the corner in a trade for pushing through outside rather than squeeze under and take the small gote life. So it seems like early in this variation LZ was willing to tenuki the checking extension the book recommends, but underestimated the severity of the peep later. Not sure if more playouts would solve this (I'm using network #139 if anyone else wants to try before I get my new computer).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bm7 LZ blind spot? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 a . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Schachus · Post by **Schachus** » Wed May 23, 2018 2:50 am

Not even considering tenuki in response to a shoulder hit on the small shimari(especially in special sitiuation) seems indeed very strange even pre-AG considering that this is a human-made joseki and :b3:

is even the most common response to :w2:

according to waltheri (though that contains recent post-AG games)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ ------------------ $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . . $$ | . . 3 . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed May 23, 2018 4:23 am

Yes, given that in life-and-death problems you are expected to make your move work against all possible resistances, it seems pretty sloppy to not attempt something approaching that in an opening/middlegame problem, though there's obviously far more choices in open play and this book only has 2 answer diagrams per problem. Still, devoting that precious space to your opponent's best answer rather than wimpy obedient one would be nice, even if it is more complex so not so easy/simple teaching (and as the last problem in the section for a book for (even weak Japanese) 1 to 7 dans I think such a move should be on the radar). Answering shoulder hits with a pincer like that isn't particularly wacky, there's plenty of old pro examples, e.g. Shusaku.

WindCaliber · Post by **WindCaliber** » Thu May 24, 2018 7:44 am

Uberdude wrote:Addendum: However, as a warning against treating LZ's word as gospel, if I make it play the book's 1, then kosumi for white (#2) and next moves all top choices it gives black only 45% to continue at 7 as best move (on 1k playouts).

...

However, if 7 is placement here it's happy to block (59%) but then if black "unexpectedly" pushes through white drops to 40%. It wants to connect at 6 and sacrifice the corner in a trade for pushing through outside rather than squeeze under and take the small gote life. So it seems like early in this variation LZ was willing to tenuki the checking extension the book recommends, but underestimated the severity of the peep later. Not sure if more playouts would solve this (I'm using network #139 if anyone else wants to try before I get my new computer).

$$Bm7 LZ blind spot?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , 4 a . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bm7 LZ blind spot? $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O O 5 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O 3 O . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X , 4 a . . . , . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . X . X . X . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

I input this into my LZ, and although it agreed that it wanted to push at 7 (your first diagram), if I played the peep at 'A' instead, it immediately saw that the :w8:

was a bad move and wanted to protect the corner. However, the best move for White after the peep gives it a 45%-46%, whereas pushing in your first diagram as Black gave it a 53%-54% in my LZ. So, I guess the peep would still be considered a blindspot.

I don't remember what network I'm running, but I guess it's kind of old at this point as it was pre-ELF.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Thu May 24, 2018 8:25 am

There's some weird non-reproducability here, I just put it in again as a fresh position and it found the peep as a good move within a few k playouts, 10% over the push out on the side, and expected the same counter peep answer as yours. I wonder if this is just random fluctuations expected in such non-deterministic algorithms, if my previous analysis had somehow biased the search tree, or I misremembered and used a different network before (I think both #139).

: lz peep.png (606.32 KiB) Viewed 26008 times

Bill Spight · Post by **Bill Spight** » Thu May 24, 2018 8:35 am

Uberdude wrote:There's some weird non-reproducability here

Menschliches, allzu menschliches.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:43 am

So we had the British championship challengers' league. I came 2nd with 5/7 and will play the 7/7 winner Sam Aitken 4d in the title match (as one would expect based on ratings going into the tourament). When I was 1/2d Sam was the hot young talent who beat a bunch of 6ds in the British open one year but he went off to live in China for a while and is now back. I've been recording my games and reviewing with LeelaZero, here's one for starters with Boris playing an AlphaGo opening he'd studied, an interesting centre fight, his big mistake and a fun trade which left me well ahead.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:49 am

I posted this in the Pandanet Leela thread as it's from a mid/high dan amateur game related to that, but I found it a striking illustration in how important an urgent power point is so will put here too. (I'm fairly trusting of LZ's judgement in this case).

There was a lot of zigzags in the winrate graph, and that's because at nearly every move for quite some stretches of the game LZ thought both players were missing the urgent point concerning the strength of the white wall on the right, q11 for black and p12 for white (I checked a few times with LeelaElf and it agrees). So everytime black doesn't play q11 his winrate drops a load, because it expects white to play the best move at p12, and then when Dragos doesn't black's win goes back up by about the same amount. It's like when you are watching DDKs playing and both fail to live/kill a 50 point group, but on a higher level. To hammer home how important LZ considers this area, here's the times it thinks it's better than the move they played (better move with a 1, game move marked with X):

Black kicked (a joseki) and white descended, LZ says should q11, if kick white should punish with hane and if black blocks then (crude?) atari and p12, so black should ignore hane to q11 and allow white poke into corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -5% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . . . X . , Z . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This m4 even I could tell was slack (if you want to play there LZ considers n5), but with q11 you need not fear m4 invasion as wall weak.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -7% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . Z . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White approached, LZ says knight move key point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -7% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . P . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black pincer, should push.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -9% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . Z . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

When white ignored pincer to make top left shimari (-12%) although initially LZ said p12 was best for white it then decided q15 press was best. Then when black split side q11 push still best.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -16% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White played checking extensions, should knight move or q15 press (very similar).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -17% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . P . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black extended/approached to make base, push still more important (it thinks white shoulder answer push, if white ignored push to c14 pincer on left then black simply o11 jumps to attack wall and grow top left and is better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -11% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White kicked, should knight or press still.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -8% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . P . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black extended, a natural and locally very urgent move, but even now LZ says push is bigger and doesn't mind if white tigers on top and black gets to o11 jump.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -10% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm repeating myself...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -13% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . P . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Ditto.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -14% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . Z . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White answered, in fact at this time (probably because of k17 now there) LZ thinks press is 0.3% better than the knight move, but both massively better than bump white played.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -16% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . P . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Again we see a local contact situation (like kick extend) so respond seems urgent, but big picture q11 push still much more important. (After extend it again slightly prefers for white press to knight move, both 12% better than o16 kosumi played).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -14% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . X Z . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

B answered the o16 kosumi with this knight, still should push, because...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc -9% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . O . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . Z . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White should still p12, now it doubles as the nozomi shape I'd previously noticed AlphaGo likes to play.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc -3% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . P . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . X . O . , X . . | $$ | . . O . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O O . | $$ | . . O , X X . . . X . X . X . , X . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Once that top right shape settles the urgency of the q11/p12 points drops. However, there is a similar zigzag later in which it thinks white should be playing the n9 shape-making point and black should be playing the o8 shape-destroying peep which they both repeatedly miss.

Gomoto · Post by **Gomoto** » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:12 am

Thanks for the interesting review.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:11 am

Lost my game in the PGETC promotion match, interesting centre play nevertheless.

I also lost, to Matias Pankoke 5d. He approached a lot in the opening, did a solid joseki whilst I made AlphaGo-style shimari and attachments. I constructed a moyo and then attached on top of his 4th line extension, pleasantly surprised to see LeelaZero actually thinks it's a decent move and his answers soft. Then came his reduction and I didn't play so well, making a clumsy shape whilst his group got strong. I switched my moyo to the left, he invaded the lower side (LZ says I should have defended there instead), I let him live (which also unsettled my group) but vaguely connected over the top to also develop left moyo and enjoyed played a cool haengma at 79 which LZ agrees is best as a surround left plus attack middle move. But I then messed up in answering his 80 push in an overly cautious way and got painfully double forced and he then took sente to play a severe attachment and I started to fall apart with the thinness I'd left behind (plus overtime pressure). I got a bit more than I deserved on the left side, and at move 123 might have made it a closeish endgame had I blocked at the lower left, or found the sharp tesuji at tengen that Facebook's Elf engine saw, but in the end played out a 16 point loss.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:50 am

Thanks for posting this.
I'm wondering about the direction of attack on the K14-N14 white stones. At 45 my instinct would rather be to put pressure on them from the K12 area to try and build the bottom/center. At 49 I'd rather play M12 to isolate the two stones while still helping the right side group. What do you think?

http://pandanet-igs.com/system/sgfs/7367/original/Madsen99-Uberdude-2018-06-05.sgf?1528234989

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:00 am

Shenoute wrote:I'm wondering about the direction of attack on the K14-N14 white stones. At 45 my instinct would rather be to put pressure on them from the K12 area to try and build the bottom/center.

Mine too! I thought attach was probably bad and small scale when I played it, and knew that extend instead of hane for his reply was likely a good answer. LZ agrees with k12. I don't really know why I play moves I know are probably bad: hoping he hanes, being a chicken over the cuts? 43 should be q11 turn earlier. Reviewing it with my 1d wife she exclaimed on that move "Oh no, why did you play like me? I think you are better than that!". Maybe playing with her too much recently

Shenoute wrote:At 49 I'd rather play M12 to isolate the two stones while still helping the right side group.

I think I need to block there. Though Elf did show me an interesting idea following my L12 bluff which failed: save the L12 stone (with m11 atari and connect, k12 is too big for W to trade) and let w capture the m13 stone as it's only a false eye and B can stay connected around white and keep up attack.

Shenoute · Post by **Shenoute** » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:17 am

Uberdude wrote:(...) Reviewing it with my 1d wife she exclaimed on that move "Oh no, why did you play like me? I think you are better than that!". Maybe playing with her too much recently

Haha, that's a nice negative compliment, or positive criticism

Uberdude wrote:I think I need to block there. Though Elf did show me an interesting idea following my L12 bluff which failed: save the L12 stone (with m11 atari and connect, k12 is too big for W to trade) and let w capture the m13 stone as it's only a false eye and B can stay connected around white and keep up attack.

Interesting. It seems indeed to be a better and safer way to isolate the white center stones than my immediate m12. Thanks!

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:37 am

Some of my games from the British Challengers' tournament a fortnight ago with some comments and LeelaZero review.

Reviewed this game with Pavol Lisy 2p at the event, LZ after

I did put in some variations in Lizzie but didn't realise it only saves mainline!

Have just downloaded GoReviewPartner, will give that a go on some other games.

Uberdude · Post by **Uberdude** » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:11 pm

I just beat LeelaZero #145 on even first time! 2 seconds a move for the bot so that's about 1k playouts, it missed a ladder.

Life In 19x19

Uberdude's journal

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