How Would You Use AI to Cheat?

[Kirby]

For me, it's not to win, but to be intellectually challenged and "solve" the interesting problem in front of me : "how to win this game?".

I agree, and this is kind of my point. The enjoyment has a tie to winning the game - your objective, is to solve the problem that you've stated: "how to win this game?". Accordingly, from that perspective, if I *lose* the game, I have failed at my objective. Comparing to tsumego problems, it's as if I got the tsumego problem incorrect.

Getting the problem incorrect is not fun to me. I feel satisfaction only if I've solved the problem correctly. Similarly, it is hard for me to feel much satisfaction in playing a game when I have not ultimately "solved" the problem of "how to win this game?"

I guess a point I'd make to myself would be: does the fact that you might get a go problem wrong mean that you cannot enjoy go problems? And the answer, I think, would be no.

It doesn't mean my satisfaction from the problems has some tie to solving a problem correctly - I only get satisfaction when I solve a problem correctly. But the fact that I might get a problem wrong doesn't mean that they are not worth doing.

I guess in the same way, the fact that I might lose a game of go shouldn't prevent me from enjoying playing go. But in order to "solve the problem" of playing the game of go, I had better try hard to win.

Losing all the time would still be unsatisfying, just like it would be unsatisfying to never get go problems correct.

[John Fairbairn]

I agree, and this is kind of my point. The enjoyment has a tie to winning the game - your objective, is to solve the problem that you've stated: "how to win this game?".

Obviously you feel that way and so it must seem true for you. But there is a mental "trick" available and that is just actively shifting your priorities round. What if you were playing your child or grandchild? Would you not feel delighted if they wiped the board with you? In a way this is the Hikaru no Go story.

Actually, I know there are some (grand)parents who hate losing to their offspring and I always feel very sorry for these people. On the other hand, it's more often having children that makes the welcome prioritising knack kick in. It's a little different with grandchildren. There you have the leisure to observe and you start, very pleasurably, to see your own childhood in them - the true meaning of second childhood.

I don't know you but I sense strongly from what you write here that you would not be one of the unprioritising meanies.

[Tryss]

For me, it's not to win, but to be intellectually challenged and "solve" the interesting problem in front of me : "how to win this game?".

I agree, and this is kind of my point. The enjoyment has a tie to winning the game - your objective, is to solve the problem that you've stated: "how to win this game?".

Accordingly, from that perspective, if I *lose* the game, I have failed at my objective. Comparing to tsumego problems, it's as if I got the tsumego problem incorrect.

Getting the problem incorrect is not fun to me. I feel satisfaction only if I've solved the problem correctly. Similarly, it is hard for me to feel much satisfaction in playing a game when I have not ultimately "solved" the problem of "how to win this game?"

Except that my enjoyement come from the process of trying to solve the problem, not having solved it. Winning or losing is not that important for me, being challenged is.

Of course, when I win I'm happy, because I solved a problem, but only if the problem itself is interesting : if it's too easy, it's not fun. But When I lose, I don't often see that as a failure (only if I played so badly that I didn't really have a try)

[Kirby]

Except that my enjoyement come from the process of trying to solve the problem, not having solved it. Winning or losing is not that important for me, being challenged is.

So you are saying that, if you have a tsumego problem that you thought was at a level that was "interesting" to you, you made an attempt to solve it, and you got the wrong answer... You'd feel satisfaction from that problem because it was interesting?

[Kirby]

Obviously you feel that way and so it must seem true for you. But there is a mental "trick" available and that is just actively shifting your priorities round. What if you were playing your child or grandchild? Would you not feel delighted if they wiped the board with you? In a way this is the Hikaru no Go story.

Thanks for the perspective. Not exactly the same, but it reminds me of when I organized several go related activities for the company I was working for. It was pretty enjoyable seeing people participate, even if I wasn't winning games or solving go problems.

[Tryss]

Except that my enjoyement come from the process of trying to solve the problem, not having solved it. Winning or losing is not that important for me, being challenged is.

So you are saying that, if you have a tsumego problem that you thought was at a level that was "interesting" to you, you made an attempt to solve it, and you got the wrong answer... You'd feel satisfaction from that problem because it was interesting?

I get a small boost in satisfaction when I solve it correctly, and a small decrease in statisfaction when I solve it incorrectly, but the main part of my enjoyement is the process of solving itself.

And Yes, I prefer spending 5 minutes on a hard problem without managing to solve it than 10s on an easy problem that I get correctly.

[Kirby]

Except that my enjoyement come from the process of trying to solve the problem, not having solved it. Winning or losing is not that important for me, being challenged is.

So you are saying that, if you have a tsumego problem that you thought was at a level that was "interesting" to you, you made an attempt to solve it, and you got the wrong answer... You'd feel satisfaction from that problem because it was interesting?

I get a small boost in satisfaction when I solve it correctly, and a small decrease in statisfaction when I solve it incorrectly, but the main part of my enjoyement is the process of solving itself.

And Yes, I prefer spending 5 minutes on a hard problem without managing to solve it than 10s on an easy problem that I get correctly.

Interesting. I have a strong feeling that I failed if I get the problem wrong. The mental activity is pleasant, but I can't forget that I was too lazy to get the right answer.

[Elom]

For the same reason martial art students practice, despite the likelihood of them needing to use it being small in many places.

Don't think, feel. Put go stones into a go bowl, they become the go bowl. Put go stones onto the go board, they become the go board. Be like go stones, my friend.

(Jeet Shi Do, way of the intercepting stone)

[Elom]

Three important points for myself: learning to play to play go at higher levels is a lot like learning a new language. Stronger players can *see* things that weaker players can't, and it's this continual improvement of vision on the board, that revelatory feeling in increasing one's understanding hard to match elsewhere. A metaphor may be taken from 1d/blackbelt, as an uninitiated onlooker observing a dan game is like looking at the colour black, and professionals, vantablack, as no lightwaves reach your eyes.

It leads on to point two, the better you are at go, the more people you can communicate with over the go board, and the more exquisite that communication can be. Being able to talk to someone directly over the go board, without the intermediary of commentary, in more and more elegant language is probably the most satisfying aspect for me in improvement. Still at the baby words stage though.

Not to mention the attraction of battle through the mind in a most beautiful form, and I can only allude it to kung fu of the mind. Maybe others might be able to relate to a few of these points, maybe not. Go is hand-talk, after all, I guess.

[dfan]

I guess you are saying that you get satisfaction from the study of go, rather than the result of actually playing a game of go.

"In addition to", not "rather than"!

I'm not asking you to feel this way, of course! I'm just explaining my own feelings.

I'd like to feel the same way, and I appreciate that you're sharing your feelings.

[tchan001]

Having an AI besides you in a game is just like having sAI help out in Hiraku no go.

[Elom]

I'd like to feel the same way, and I appreciate that you're sharing your feelings.

Quotable

[yakcyll]

Interesting. I have a strong feeling that I failed if I get the problem wrong. The mental activity is pleasant, but I can't forget that I was too lazy to get the right answer.

I'm the same way; going through a problem set and feeling the progress is a nice experience, but every time I stumble on a problem, it generates a disproportionately negative response.

I used to be really into competitive video games, to a point where I read meta books on learning, improving, about the mentality of winners, formed a practice regime and some such nonsense. It took an immediate toll on my mental health, as anything that goes unmoderated can, but one everlasting consequence of that endeavor is also that I don't really, truly enjoy activities involving competition. This is because those activities, in course of time, were boiled down to their binary results: success or failure. Not a very thrilling matter, is it? Go has a social aspect to it that I appreciate - after joining a club and meeting familiar faces every week, it's been a pleasure to try my wits against others, but having recently decided to participate in some ranked tournaments, I can feel the pressure mounting again and it's not great.

On a positive side, I've developed a great appreciation for sportsmanship, dedication to craft and general strive for improvement. In my view, utilizing any sort of artificial assistance to increase the likelihood of winning should not be condoned. It's not hard to be a stickler with a problem like this at hand ('what about coffee!?'), but fairness in competition is something to strive for I think.

Cheating online, without cameras, is not exactly a trivial matter, but more of a time consuming exercise in planning rather than some sort of an ultimate heist for glory. As long as the investigatory process is based on statistics, all one has to do is outnumber the committee.

[sorin]

I just read this interesting report from the Chess world: https://www.chess.com/news/view/life-ti ... r-cheating

I found surprising how persistent the cheater was.

Also, interesting that he was caught on camera, there is a video in the article.

Banned for life.

[Elom]

Interesting. I have a strong feeling that I failed if I get the problem wrong. The mental activity is pleasant, but I can't forget that I was too lazy to get the right answer.

I'm the same way; going through a problem set and feeling the progress is a nice experience, but every time I stumble on a problem, it generates a disproportionately negative response...

Oddly enough, I am most indifferent to getting the correct answer in a go puzzle*. It's little different to sudoku with added go nutrients.

The two main points I really care about is:

1-Whether I tried to the best of my ability, i.e. trained to failure for progressive overload.
2-The kind of problem: more creative, or everyday? The journey of the problem really holds the pleasure as delves into the mind of the composer as they would with a piece of music.

*Is the connotation of 'problem' really OK?