“Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A”

[EdLee]

if they use computers to cheat, then the greatest suffering they inflict is on themselves.

[Joaz Banbeck]

[admin]

For the year 2018, this thread has generated more reports and complaints than all other posts on the site put together.
If this continues, we will lock it.

[/admin]

[daal]

[admin]

For the year 2018, this thread has generated more reports and complaints than all other posts on the site put together.
If this continues, we will lock it.

[/admin]

It seems to be a fairly important topic to the community. What is the nature of the complaints?

[Gobang]

And at the end of it all, what harm has been done? A ban proven to be unfair ban has been reversed, so a referee somewhere has a bit of egg on face (rightly) and a couple of jealous rivals have had their noses tweaked out of joint.

Nothing has been proven.

As a general comment I find this topic and discussion rather ugly and at times pointless. Let the kids play, but don't attach any undue importance to their games. Arguing about whether someone has cheated in an online game is futile because at the end of the day the only person who truly knows is the player.

What harm has been done? No harm, simply a more widespread realization that online play is open to cheating and results from such games should be valued and viewed accordingly. Contests such as the Pandanet Go European Team Championship have in my opinion been rendered meaningless.

Regarding the individual being discussed. I wish him all the best in all his endeavors. Being discussed and at times pilloried can hardly be a pleasant experience. Especially when what he did or did not do hardly has any meaning in the grand scheme of things.

[Uberdude]

[admin]

For the year 2018, this thread has generated more reports and complaints than all other posts on the site put together.
If this continues, we will lock it.

[/admin]

It seems to be a fairly important topic to the community. What is the nature of the complaints?

>>>> Discussion of Moderation here

I too consider this an important topic, for better or worse this forum seems to have ended up as the main public place on the internet it is discussed, so don't want it to be locked.

<moderator hat on>
Having said that, I think this meta-discussion about moderation is better placed in a separate thread, so have made the heavy-handed, undemocratic decision to move those posts to this new thread and will answer the points there, and would appreciate feedback / constructive criticism about how we should moderate situations like this.
<moderator hat off>

[Elom]

I haven't paid all that much attention to this thread so far, due to time constraints— okay, maybe I'm not the most responsible go member then .

But I do wonder what the application of eye-tracking technology may do to help!

I am...

Who I think

You think

I am.

Update: Just imagining the scene of players downloading screen-capture software, eye-tracking software, and dancing in front of good ol' web-cam technology to prove they are not up to anything fishy.

*Dancing* *Dancing*

[Uberdude]

As a general comment I find this topic and discussion rather ugly and at times pointless. Let the kids play, but don't attach any undue importance to their games. Arguing about whether someone has cheated in an online game is pointless because at the end of the day the only person who truly knows is the player.

And as a more specific comment, I find your tone unduly dismissive The vast majority of the players in the PGETC are adults, not children, so why demean them? As for how much importance to attach to them, shouldn't players be able to choose? I place more value on them than most of my real life tournament games (mostly against low dans) because they are a rare opportunity for serious games against strong players. Strong players on the continent with more such opportunities likely values this aspect less. I also think it's a nice event to encourage European camaraderie.

I think cheating is wrong and we should try to prevent it, but also as you say at the end of the day the only person who really knows is the accused and it may be we can't made a useful detection system with a low enough false positive rate. However, I am aware that fears of people cheating have reduced the enthusiasm for the league of some players, so if it is to remain viable strong action against cheating is needed. Personally, if I play 6 games a season and 1 of them is bot-cheating (which I think is quite a lot higher percentage than we have now or will soon), I'd prefer that to cancelling the league entirely, a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater imo. Making the games unrated again would be reasonable though.

[dsatkas]

The idea of cheating in general, but particularly, in one of the most important tournaments in Europe is shocking. It's not only that it's unfair, it's downright disgusting and disrespectful to the whole community. Since also it's a team tournament, the implications are not only individual, but affect all players in at least one league and the team that has to play relegation game. That's approximately a dozen teams. It also puts in serious doubt the whole endeavor of conducting the tournament online.

This affects all of us that don't have the luxury to travel to a foreign country to play a couple-days tournament (and remember at least four people of the same country must have this luxury), lose the chance to play against stronger opponents, strengthen the "go bonds" between a national community and so much more. About the last point, the success of our team this season has increased the number of players that are interested in the game, our community has become more active and our team will be stronger for next season.

I mention all of that to showcase the significance of the tournament in countries that go is not so popular and that it can serve as a catalyst to boost the popularity. If the tournament ceases to exist because of cheating, that would be a huge hit to the European community in "developing" countries in go terms and we need to at least discuss what we can do about it. This thread is far too significant to be buried under some forum rules.

[Uberdude]

dsatkas, you are Greek, right?

[Bojanic]

The idea of cheating in general, but particularly, in one of the most important tournaments in Europe is shocking. It's not only that it's unfair, it's downright disgusting and disrespectful to the whole community.

Actually, there is more...
It seems that there are more players who are cheating, but are trying to keep low profile.

But case we are discussing is much more sinister:
- We have a player who is quite clearly caught in cheating.
- League manager rightfully makes decision to sanction him.
- There is appeal, which is seemingly followed by political pressure, after which PGETC management reverses decision, and stops further investigations. This is shitty to say the least.
- Player in question seems to continue to use computer help, this time with new software.

If that is not disgusting enough, player in question is set to be tournament referee on most important European tournament.
Seriously?
If someone told me this, I would tell him he is kidding, right?

[dsatkas]

dsatkas, you are Greek, right?

yes sir

ps. i just want to clarify something, i am not accusing Carlo of cheating, since i'm not an in a position to make a verdict. The fact that the statistical analysis and some of the comments in this tread show that the investigation is inconclusive and people who i have met in person from the Italian community and i respect, have defended him, make me more restrained and careful about how i express my disappointment/frustration/anger about the the whole thing. Initially, i wanted his head on a spike, but it's better for a guilty person to get away with it, than an innocent be punished.

[John Fairbairn]

This type of thread tends to go in repeating circles, presumably in part because people don't read the earliest posts. We are already dizzy and admins are in a tizzy. So in an effort to expand the topic in a more fruitful way, can I ask whether anyone has seen any information on how a women's tournament was conducted about a fortnight ago?

It was the 1st Zhongheng Cup in Pingjiang, China, for female pros who played with the AI Yi-Tianrang in some way. The top women were there anyway for a round of the Women's Weiqi League, which goes to various snazzy places each round and is often accompanied by side events. In this case Tao Ran + Yi-Tianrang beat Gao Xing + Yi-Tianrang in the final.

This is not cheating, of course, but we might call it legalised cheating How does it work? And it may be relevant to know how the same idea in chess. The crucial question is how do you avoid the human making only AI generated moves. In this case it was described as "pair go" so I'm guessing each side had to alternate woman then computer. Does that produce enjoyable go?

[Bill Spight]

But case we are discussing is much more sinister:
- We have a player who is quite clearly caught in cheating.

We have a player who is quite clearly suspected of cheating.

- League manager rightfully makes decision to sanction him.

He is sanctioned on questionable evidence and procedure.

- There is appeal, which is seemingly followed by political pressure, after which PGETC management reverses decision, and stops further investigations. This is shitty to say the least.

The appeal was correctly upheld, given the problems with evidence and procedure. I have no idea about the question of further investigation. Indeed, there is a stink around the whole thing.

- Player in question seems to continue to use computer help, this time with new software.

This allegation raises the possibility of new charges of cheating, which underscores the point raised about statistical evidence, that you need a lot of it, and that a player who continues to cheat over time stands a good chance of being caught.

[Bojanic]

Bill,
I am not talking about statistical analysis. For me, it is enough only for suspicion.
Same like with deviation diagram of Leela's moves.

Statistical analysis shows only total amount of something, and it can be wrong. One can have same moves čike leela in joseki, or in fight where they are forced, or play important middle game move. There is less critical endgame moves in middlegame, than joseki moves, and in statistics it is the same. And it is not, there is huge difference.

I analyzed, with some help from friends, critical moves in Carlo's suspicious games and in his wagc games. It clearly shows different level of play. In live games, Carlo is not able to play so strong. In online, most of his moves match Leelas top choice. Dramatic difference!

It will take me few days to write this report, you will have chance to see it here.

[Bill Spight]

I analyzed, with some help from friends, critical moves in Carlo's suspicious games and in his wagc games. It clearly shows different level of play. In live games, Carlo is not able to play so strong.

This is the kind of investigation that should have occurred before the original sanction.