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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #21 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:41 am 
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For what it's worth, at this moment, LZ prefer white (giving W a little over 70% winrate).

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Post #22 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:08 am 
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Tryss wrote:
For what it's worth, at this moment, LZ prefer white (giving W a little over 70% winrate).
Oh, that sounds like a lot. Could it mean that black doesn't have much to gain from the shenanigans on the left side?

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Post #23 Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:05 am 
Judan

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Iirc Yamashita was quite a bit ahead in the early opening in their last game according to LeelaZero/Elf (surrounding the 4-4 point not enough compensation for Iyama when Yamashita got the g3 turn in sente; interestingly very similar to a game of mine I posted in my study journal recently, based on the bot idea that press to 3-4 is bigger than answering 4-4 double approach, though at least Iyama played b4 not b3 like my opp) but ballsed it up soon enough.

I checked a few bits with LeelaElf:
- it doesn't like (-4%) Iyama's 3-3 but prefers traditional f3, maybe because of o4 trying to develop lower side? (If I turn lower right to just the 3-4 then 3-3 not so bad but still prefers f3, or #1 shimari lower right, AG teaching tool shows 3-3 as best but gives no information on approach or shimari). If we believe that judgement, it seems even top pros might be copying the AIs a bit too much without understanding them :)
- wants to j4 peep for 25. I've seen bots (Golaxy, LZ?) do this a lot. Or d8.
- really doesn't like 33 e5, g6 instead, w spends move on left and b gets ahead in lower side fight.
- I suppose W left is too good and the peep too late (because now W doesn't mind sacrificing 3 stones as black made a load of bad exchanges on the left side), it likes Yamashita's m4 which I thought cool.
- It didn't see the kosumi but descend. W d6 connect big mistake (but I'm using <1k playouts so don't trust so much in positions like this that need reading, Elf gives W 76% before, 66% after), I suppose he didn't want Iyama to get b4 or some other relatively minor but easy gain in sente, connect means no easy pickings for Iyama but potentially big fruits in complicated outside stuff as a lot more play in the position now.


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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:01 am 
Judan

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Iyama won by resign. Yamashita actually kept his lead (according to Elf, too hard for me to judge) for longer than I expected, but as usual Iyama kept the game complicated with unsetttled groups fighting and Yamashita made 2 big mistakes: 134 (should capture in middle) and 144 (should play at B's 145, if B kills right group then W kills lower middle one); I wonder when he went into overtime. I liked the way Iyama made Yamashita's life in the lower right have a negative effect on the big outside group so avoiding an endgame.

Another interesting little shape lesson: Iyama played 1 below. After some play in top left and right white slid at a, so although 1 was solid it didn't make much territory. Elf preferred to play 1 as kosumi at b or knights move at c (which one changed a bit based on surroundings: before Iyama's squeeze on left it liked c more). If black can get both these moves it's more efficient and I suppose the corollary is that black doesn't fear white running at p6 after kosumi because too busy. In fact the marked white approach and black high answer were the moves just before white's slide, Elf says black should play the kosumi now to close the territory (or k10), double approaches against a 4-4 are nothing to fear, kosumi has real profit, and the high move just makes the slide perfect. This kind of kosumi attempting to gobble up more efficiently is something I've noticed with bot reviews a few times (it's not really part of my shape repertoire, and although I expect pros consider it more than me I suspect still not enough).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Iyama (black) vs Yamashita
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . O O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O O O X . . . . . . . . b . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . c . . X . a . |
$$ | . . O O O X . X X . . O . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . X X O O . X . , . . . |
$$ | X O X X X O O O O O . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:37 am 
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Game 4


Yes, Uberdude. I was a bit surprised by some of the plays on the side, starting with 128. I would have thought that playing in the center and putting pressure on black here would have been more interesting.


Attachments:
Yamashita-Iyama_73rd Honinbo_Game 4.sgf [1.46 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:56 am 
Judan

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For 128 r8 has the obvious problem at s6 (though would black do it now or just be happy to have created the option for a big corner later), but what's wrong with r7? I'm guessing Iyama had some plan to do with sacrificing and getting a squeeze with p8 and some more stones in the area would enable him to kill the upper right white group? Or q9 looks interesting. I'd be happy as black to play r8, but maybe that's just because I don't see black's dastardly plans if white played there first ;-) .

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #27 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:37 pm 
Judan

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Caveats apply, but here's Elf's winrate graph at 2k-4k playouts.

Attachment:
Iyama-Yamashita g4 winrate.PNG
Iyama-Yamashita g4 winrate.PNG [ 442.71 KiB | Viewed 821 times ]

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Post #28 Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:25 pm 
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Hi Tryss,

For :w78:, does LZ/Elf have any opinion about the game move, v. the clamp B16, or other options ?

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:53 am 
Judan

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Hi Ed (I guess you mixed up which of me and Tryss were using Lizzie in which thread!),
I suppose you are wondering about the clamp because you thought it was quite nice for black to get c17 and c18 to live nicely and giving white the broken shape making b18 silly? That was also my feeling watching the game. On the other hand white got a ponnuki, so f14 ended up silly, but that one's harder to judge. Here's a simple variation we can compare against, Elf gives white 66% after this, it was 72% before. In this position b18 for c17 is obviously a terrible exchange for white, but also black hasn't made bad exchanges giving white a ponnuki so white's outside is much less thick (e.g. nice peep shape point at a).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm76
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , X . . O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . X X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . X X O O . X . , . . . |
$$ | X O X X X O O O O O . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Elf likes the b18 attach, but likes the k10 influence point 1% more, I think it is generally good at this kind of whole-board vision. After b18 it agrees d13 hane is best and then initially counter-hane of game but after ~50k playouts prefers "heavy" e14 pull back. It does think about clamp a little bit:
Attachment:
Yama clamp.PNG
Yama clamp.PNG [ 188.55 KiB | Viewed 744 times ]


Expected continuation, note after clamp you need another move or black can extend due to 79 support, 81 haengma is elegant, white ends at 68% with the slide, clearly the best place to spend the sente says Elf:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm78
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X 3 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , X . . O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ | . . O O O X . X X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . X X O O . X . , . . . |
$$ | X O X X X O O O O O . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


With the game line Elf thinks white should have extended for 80 (2% better) and black just captured from Atari. So black c18 was a little -1%, and white's capture best (if block then big -15% mistake as black will extend not capture and live in sente (e12 needed or f16 cut), getting to play the k10 or r8 key point (it flips between them). White is down to 52% here. With the game line white would be 72% if he played s8 slide, but the o17 approach took that down to 65%, but then Iyama's answer an even bigger mistake (k10, with f8 atari first, or r8 preferred) and back up to 78%!

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm82
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , O . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . X 4 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . , X . . O . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | O . O O X . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O . . O O O X X . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . X O O X X X . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . X X . . O . . X . . . . |
$$ | . O . O X X . O . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . O O O X . . X X O O . X . , . . . |
$$ | X O X X X O O O O O . . O X . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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Post #30 Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:06 am 
Honinbo
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Hi Uberdude, thanks.
I still don't have any bots, so I'm at the mercy of others who do.
Just whoever has the time & energy to run these nice bots. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #31 Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:00 am 
Judan

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Honinbo game 5 2nd day is underway. Yamashita is 1-3 down so needs to win to avoid defeat. Following along with Elf it thinks he was doing pretty well until around move 112 where it thinks he made several big mistakes and Iyama now leading. My guess is it won't swing back to Yamashita, Iyama seems to be much better at holding on to a lead once he gets it. There is a funny semeai thing on the board though that I think is probably some long ko so maybe Elf isn't evaluating correctly, but playing around with the position there are no jumps in winrate when I clarify it so it's probably fine with it.

From the opening, Elf says Iyama's biggest mistake was an interesting 'big picture' idea. Iyama played 28 as the undermining approach to the big shimari, Yamahishita pincered, and Iyama the now normal attachment in the corner to make a group here and they played this modern joseki.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28 Iyama (white) vs Yamashita
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . 0 X 6 3 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . 2 . 1 . 9 5 4 8 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


However, Elf strongly thinks white should not have continued in the corner, but cap at the top (12% better). This looks like a nice large scale topography type move, loosely linking up the top left and top right white groups whilst pressuring black on top. It also helps deal with weakness of the f13 knight move. The m3 k3 exchange is pretty neutral according to Elf, but continuing locally is quite natural (m5 jump better than attachment though apparently).
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Elf's move
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If black says "Hey, I'm going to make that a bad exchange" and reinforces the corner (-7%), white could just continue solidly on top at g15. Better for black would be r13, c8 and m17 being distant 2nd/3rd choices. Black r13 being the right answer gives the hint that white g15 is actually soft, best would be r14, black answers at q9 and then white plays g15. Elf also thinks white should have capped instead of m3, but only a minor mistake.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm30 Elf's move
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O X . . X . . . . O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . O . O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . O X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . X . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . X . O . 2 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Edit: poor Yamashita:
Attachment:
73Honinbo5 winrate.png
73Honinbo5 winrate.png [ 327.11 KiB | Viewed 544 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #32 Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:54 am 
Judan

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Iyama did indeed win, so retains the Honinbo title for the 7th year in a row.

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #33 Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:20 am 
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Thanks for the detailed analysis, Uberdude!
Shame that Yamashito could not make it better than a 1-4 defeat. It seems that he had quite a few chances but had a harder time during the second half of the games. In other words, inmany games it looked like Yamashita got a good/better position out of the opening/beginning of the middle-game. Is it because opening is a known weak (relatively speaking) point of Iyama or because Yamashita's opening is acknowledged as his forte?

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 Post subject: Re: The 73rd Honinbo is upon us!
Post #34 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 2:04 am 
Judan

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Shenoute wrote:
Thanks for the detailed analysis, Uberdude!
Shame that Yamashito could not make it better than a 1-4 defeat. It seems that he had quite a few chances but had a harder time during the second half of the games. In other words, inmany games it looked like Yamashita got a good/better position out of the opening/beginning of the middle-game. Is it because opening is a known weak (relatively speaking) point of Iyama or because Yamashita's opening is acknowledged as his forte?

I get the impression Iyama is experimenting with new opening ideas from bots, so being less familiar with them can end up going behind in the opening (by the judgement of such bots, I don't know if Yamashita would have felt the same in the game). Once you get to fighting in late middlegame the effect of those less familiar opening shapes has diminished so his greater strength shines though. I also think Yamashita's play deteriorates more when he has to play quickly.

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