“Decision: case of using computer assistance in League A”

[Javaness2]

- and now, even internet bots, who attack people who think differently.

If they are CM, I'd respect their words more if they said so directly

[Javaness2]

Another point to note is that the laptop screen is not big enough to view Leela 0.11 and a Go server client at the same time. You need to toggle between three windows: Leela 0.11 board, Leela 0.11 Analysis and the (Pandanet) client. That takes time.

Isn't it possible just to have either extra screens, or more than 1 laptop?

Another tangent - can you easily train a network (well just make a program) to help you cheat?
All you would surely need to do would be to feed it two sets of input data. Okay, maybe it is beyond the scope of this thread.

[Bojanic]

Another point to note is that the laptop screen is not big enough to view Leela 0.11 and a Go server client at the same time. You need to toggle between three windows: Leela 0.11 board, Leela 0.11 Analysis and the (Pandanet) client. That takes time.

Jan,
There is no need for 3 windows and toggle. In Leela you can simply press f2 and activate analysis, which would show in red best moves.
Also, two boards is easily possible on any monitor.

[John Fairbairn]

How can it be ensured that "we" do not simply come up with a system that launders cheating, (as in pro cycling)?

I'm not sure that analogy applies.

I sympathise, because when I was young I very much enjoyed watching athletics on tv. What turned me against it (strongly) were the use of pace-makers and the use of drugs. It was a gradual process and there were other factors, such as the introduction of high-tech tracks and shoes which (then) favoured white guys from rich countries. At that time, my objections were simply about the disruption of a level playing field.

But since then it has become apparent that drugs are very dangerous in themselves, and that sporting stars who use them can be role models for youngsters - a possibly greater danger.

In contrast, in go (and chess), while there may be the occasional incident involving drugs such as beta blockers, there is no sense that contests are generally decided by who has the best pharmacist. Cheating in go and chess may be immoral (is in my view) but it is not yet endangering anyone.

If we go to the other extreme, we will no doubt see in the next few weeks many, many examples of the professional foul in the World Cup football matches. At worst the player will get a red card. But countless more times we will see deliberate minor trips and pushes and time wasting that just elicit a peep of the referee's whistle. Objectively these are surely all forms of cheating, but for many decades we have tolerated this behaviour. Indeed, there are sports such as ice hockey and pro wrestling where fans might stop going if there were no spectacular fouls and punch-ups.

Go seems to be somewhere in the middle of this spectrum. Until real and present danger presents itself, no organisation will spend big money on the problem. But cheating in go seems immoral enough to activate some ordinary fans to try to put an anti-cheating framework in place. It won't be very elaborate because there won't be any big money behind it. If pros act, it won't be because they want to help amateurs. It will be because they are terrified of losing sponsorship. Either way it will be a rickety framework, but not (intentionally, at least) a "laundry."

So in that situation, talking about the problem here is maybe the only way forward for amateurs. The discussion may seem tedious and too rumbustious to some, but it seems, in my memory, to pale into insignificance compared to the past discussions of other forms of cheating on the servers: escaping and sandbagging.

[Elom]

...

The discussion may seem tedious and too rumbustious to some, but it seems, in my memory, to pale into insignificance compared to the past discussions of other forms of cheating on the servers: escaping and sandbagging.

Seconded.

[Charlie]

... but it is not yet endangering anyone.

Hey. All this blitz-clicking and switching between windows can give you some nasty RSI.

[bugsti]

This is biggest scandal in European Go I can remember of (and I play for 30 years).
It has everything:
- cheating in important game,
- referee in most important tournament involved,
- political pressure to influence referees,
- and now, even internet bots, who attack people who think differently.

Political pressure to influence referees?

Please explain this very serious sentence and prove it otherwise you only look like a paranoid conspirator.

[Bojanic]

Political pressure to influence referees?

Please explain this very serious sentence and prove it otherwise you only look like a paranoid conspirator.

As I was told, one of the italian organizers told one of the EGF officials that if they don't reverse decision on Metta's suspension, they would not be able to organize EGC. After that, and dubious statistical analysis „not 98% but 93%“, decision was reversed.
Carlo Metta is one of the main organizers of EGC, and is supposed to be be main referee.

Somewhere here or on fb was published reply to Cieply's analysis from EGF official, claiming that further analysis cannot be done because we can not disturb Italians in EGC organization.
And I got same reply on my preliminary analysis, which only prompted me to do more work.

I hope that this makes things more clear.

[maf]

I've wondered about this. Why did Mr. Metta not step down voluntarily? Regardless of the truth about the alleged cheating, putting him in this position only calls for more trouble, doesn't it? It seems sensible to simply avoid this altogether. Was there an announcement in this regard?

[Jan.van.Rongen]

....
There is no need for 3 windows and toggle. In Leela you can simply press f2 and activate analysis, which would show in red best moves.
Also, two boards is easily possible on any monitor.

You are mistaken. F2 toggles the analysis MODE, but does not bring the analysisi window to the forefront when it is already hidden behind another window.

....
This is biggest scandal in European Go I can remember of (and I play for 30 years).
It has everything:
- cheating in important game,
- referee in most important tournament involved,
....

Are you serious? This is completely over the top.

[Bill Spight]

I've wondered about this. Why did Mr. Metta not step down voluntarily?

Possibly to save face.

[RobertJasiek]

Why did Mr. Metta not step down voluntarily?

There can be many reasons, such as not letting the step-down-criers decide what the honest man offers to the community by doing responsible, voluntary jobs of referee and organiser. It takes seconds of demanding step down but days, weeks, months or maybe years to perform the voluntary jobs.

[Gobang]

In this thread there is talk of a "we" who should come up with an anti cheating system. Who exactly are these "we"? Random people in an internet thread? What expertise do these "we" have"? What resources? How much time will "we" devote to this task? Will "we" be reimbursed by somebody? If "we" come up with a system, will anybody use it? How can it be ensured that "we" do not simply come up with a system that launders cheating, (as in pro cycling)?

Can you clarify? I'm not sure I understand your intention. Is this a genuine question? Sorry if I'm misreading.

Clarify what? Cheat laundering? In some sports there is a long tradition of cheat laundering. An elaborate anti cheating system is established. Athletes loudly proclaim that they are innocent of cheating when their cheating is not detected by the system. Lance Armstrong comes to mind.

What is the point of my post? The point is to point in the direction of the fact that time and effort directed towards creating an anti cheating system will most likely be pointless and may in fact be counterproductive.

[Gobang]

....
There is no need for 3 windows and toggle. In Leela you can simply press f2 and activate analysis, which would show in red best moves.
Also, two boards is easily possible on any monitor.

You are mistaken. F2 toggles the analysis MODE, but does not bring the analysisi window to the forefront when it is already hidden behind another window.

....
This is biggest scandal in European Go I can remember of (and I play for 30 years).
It has everything:
- cheating in important game,
- referee in most important tournament involved,
....

Are you serious? This is completely over the top.

I don't think it is over the top at all. I am not aware of any bigger scandal in European Go either.

Bojanic: "As I was told, one of the italian organizers told one of the EGF officials that if they don't reverse decision on Metta's suspension, they would not be able to organize EGC. After that, and dubious statistical analysis „not 98% but 93%“, decision was reversed. Carlo Metta is one of the main organizers of EGC, and is supposed to be be main referee."

[Tryss]

That's a serious accusation (In my eye, more serious than cheating). You say you were told, but is it by the EGF official directly involved, or is a second hand info?