Moderation on the PGETC Leela cheating case thread

[Uberdude]

From the original thread at viewtopic.php?p=232802#p232802

There is censorship going on here by L19 admins which is quite frankly disgusting. I seriously expect better from you, knowing some of you in real life. Step up. The original poster of https://www.reddit.com/r/baduk/comments ... _admitted/ has contacted me by email claiming that he tried to post twice to L19 to share this, and that the admins/moderators declined to let his post go live both times. It is absolutely not your place to censor that. It's totally irrelevant whether you own the forum or not; if you wish to have an open community, then you absolutely must allow users to make their own decisions and openly discuss things like this. By deliberately censoring things like that, and not even allowing users to make up their own mind, you are taking a side. That is not the job of an administrator, moderator or community owner. Shape up. You might think yourselves able to silence some poor anonymous player who barely speaks our language, knowing that he can't stand up and fight against that, but don't try to do that to me. I can and will make one hell of a fuss if forced to. Allow this to play out from a neutral standpoint, as is your duty. Both sides have their defenders and detractors. Only stand in if personal attacks occur. No one has any right to censor information. I likely wouldn't have come in and presented all of this if you had have behaved appropriately towards that person.

As I already posted

Just yesterday there was a post from a new user called "CarloCheating" pending approval, anonymously claiming to be Carlo's teammate, with a confession of cheating and details of its nature in his most recent game. This was also posted on reddit, where myself and others questioned the veracity and someone pointed out the style of broken English was not normal for an Italian. So in the absence of any corroboration and given that a discussion was also taking place elsewhere I (and another mod) thought it best to not approve it for now. Is that bad censorship, should we let people make up their own mind if this is true or a troll?

Bill, whose opinion I value as an older user with moderator experience replied

IMO, Uberdude did the right thing by not approving an uncorroborated accusation from an unknown source.

So this assuaged my concerns. Simba obviously answers my question with a definite "yes". As this person had created a lively discussion on reddit (which I linked to) and also contacted Ales Cieply and other EGF people I did not feel a whistleblower had been unable to make his voice heard.

I messaged CarloCheating (after discussing with other moderators), saying we would approve his message if he could provide some corroboration given the serious accusations. He never replied. I had hoped he might offer a screenshot of a chat in Italian with the reddit user who pointed out his unusual style of English (which doesn't prove it's fake, but heightens concerns), or perhaps screenshots of emails or chat messages with Carlo. If the purported confession was in person then an audio recording would be brilliant, Watergate style. Some evidence he was at least Italian (not that an Italian with enmity towards Carlo couldn't fabricate) like a photo with "Hi Uberdude" written on an Italian newspaper with a Vespa and some olives in the background. An offer to reveal his identity in confidence or via a third party (quote from an Italian teammate of Carlo's from reddit below). Anything.

If this is true, it would clearly close the case. Therefore, OP, if you are who you claim you are I strongly urge you to come forward. If you are afraid to come out in public, please chose some neutral person you trust and send the details to them. I would certainly stand on your side if you choose to come out with the truth.

Given the strength of feeling this case has aroused I think there is a real possibility this confession was fabricated by someone who thinks Carlo is guilty. I doubt the vast majority of such people would be so unscrupulous to invent this story, but it only takes one.

[Kirby]

Given the strength of feeling this case has aroused I think there is a real possibility this confession was fabricated by someone who thinks Carlo is guilty. I doubt the vast majority of such people would be so unscrupulous to invent this story, but it only takes one.

I think blocking the post is reasonable. You are giving him the option of providing better evidence for his accusations, an opportunity to give his identity - anything to help corroborate his (serious) accusation.

FWIW, the IP address he used to login to the forums isn't from Italy. This doesn't necessarily mean anything since he could be posting from another part of Europe or using a proxy as he claimed in Reddit. But its certainly suspicious.

We are not censoring a user just to censor an opinion we disagree with. We are asking someone that is making a personal accusation to provide better evidence to back up their story.

[John Fairbairn]

Given the strength of feeling this case has aroused I think there is a real possibility this confession was fabricated by someone who thinks Carlo is guilty. I doubt the vast majority of such people would be so unscrupulous to invent this story, but it only takes one.

You are quite right to believe in this possibility. Any newspaper, tax office, drugs agency, immigration office or police station will tell you that there are people trying to shop other people all the time.

Your introspection may have been caused by the latest charge against the mods: "disgusting." I believe that is totally unwarranted.

For avoidance of doubt, I have myself expressed some opinions that have a bearing on moderation and I wish to clarify them.

One is that I have found some moderating "heavy handed." I stand by that. I am referring to cases such as those of Robert Jasiek and djbrown, not the present case. But I have also conceded that where a poster proves to be too high maintenance, volunteer mods can be excused for bring up the portcullis (at east if they explain why). Regrettable but understandable.

I have, along with others, mentioned the importance of freedom of speech. Robert has said he supports freedom of speech within appropriate laws. I go along with that but with extra constraints. One is that the site owner has the final say, and another is, again, that volunteer mods must have the right to put a premium on their own time and to protect themselves.

In real life, anyone has the right to shout "Fire" in a crowded theatre but if it leads to someone being trampled to death they also have "right" to be charged with manslaughter and sued. On L19, someone who shouts the equivalent of "Fire" faces no such sanction, and therefore it is right if mods expect a higher standard for the use of free speech even than in real life. That higher standard should, where appropriate, include evidence that can be easily scrutinised. That is why I objected to Kirby's initial story about sexual assault. (For this forum, quoting a link to a Korean news site is not easily accessible to most people and therefore not scrutinisable). In the present case, the post by CarloCheating offered no such evidence either and was rightly intercepted (even if it, too, eventually proves to be true). Asking the poster to provide the evidence, as uberdude did, is not censorship. Nor, even, is suggesting a rewording or a slight delay in posting - time for reflection. Editors of newspapers do this all the time with young journalists.

ubderdude's response was not just commendable but going a bit further that we can reasonably expect of a volunteer mod. Personally, were I mod, I think I might handle these evidence-light cases simply but lazily by posting a note on the forum saying something like: "We are receiving contentious posts making unsubstantiated charges. This is a reminder that such posts must be accompanied by verifiable evidence before they can be posted here." I would also like to see a requirement to shed anonymity, but it seems I'd have to be the site owner to get that through.

I hope that clarifies the message from one noisy user. To sum up, I think the cheating thread, although tumultuous, is working well and being allowed to work well through the background work by the mods. They are also usefully demonstrating the superiority of L19 over reddit.

[Kirby]

That is why I objected to Kirby's initial story about sexual assault. (For this forum, quoting a link to a Korean news site is not easily accessible to most people and therefore not scrutinisable)

Fair enough. I see the similarity between what I'd expect of "Carlo Cheating" (the user), in this case, and my post on the Kim Seongryong topic. I maintain that I had read a few different articles before posting, and was confident in the accuracy of what I was posting. That being said, given that it was a serious allegation against Kim Seongryong, it would have been worth the effort to provide additional sources and evidence, even if I'm not a journalist.

I don't really feel inclined to always be fully professional with citing Korean sources, etc., from news sites when I share them - if I think something is interesting, I don't mind casually sharing it. But in cases where an allegation is against someone else like here, and in the "Carlo Cheating" case, I feel it's fair to expect a thorough representation of the evidence when the case is presented.

In both cases, I think it's still useful to present the news, but giving as much information as possible is fair to a person who is being accused.