Are their any place I can go to learn joseki?

[Chaosrider2808]

negapesuo:

I have the same interest as you do, being a 9 kyu beginner. The BWD has a Joseki library included, but it's not BW code. I'm sure there's good stuff there, but I find both the screen presentation and the text to be unhelpful.

Digging around looking for old Go stuff that I've bought in the past (sometimes distant past), I just this morning found that I have Many Faces of Go. The Joseki section looks like it will be good for me, but I need a more basic understanding of what joseki is about first.

But my biggest immediate question is...

DrStraw:

Exactly, I want to understand corner play much better than I do. And how to form live groups in the corners. I'm gradually getting better at that, in a random walk sort of way. BWD is helping, particularly contact fights, but I think there's something more basic that I'm still missing. Suggestions?

3lhouse:

Do you have a pointer for where I can get the free BW-Joseki app? I'd prefer a version that runs on my PC, but anything by BW, I'm going to like!

Gomoto:

MFG has a fuseki section, but I haven't looked at it yet. Any comments about it from those here?

For the entire assembled wisdom here:

I've finished the introductory stuff and Elementary Contact Fights in BWD. So, what would you recommend as my next area of study focus:

BWD Novice Contact Fights
BWD Elementary Sector Fights
Joseki (MFG or other)
Fuseki (MFG or other)
Other (please specify!)

...?

Suggestions very greatly appreciated!



TCS

[Bill Spight]

For the entire assembled wisdom here:

I've finished the introductory stuff and Elementary Contact Fights in BWD. So, what would you recommend as my next area of study focus:

BWD Novice Contact Fights
BWD Elementary Sector Fights
Joseki (MFG or other)
Fuseki (MFG or other)
Other (please specify!)

...?

Suggestions very greatly appreciated!



TCS

Joseki and Fuseki are rapidly becoming obsolete in the AI era. I would not take old material too seriously, and would look at recent pro and AI games for inspiration.

[Chaosrider2808]

Well...I'm not yet ready to engage the Borg.

I'd prefer to first learn how to play well in the Old School way, when there were no entities extant on Earth who could beat the best humans. From there, maybe I'll engage the Borg, and maybe I won't.

Unless there's an AI that can TEACH, I'm just going to set that entire realm aside for now.

If you could help me understand the appeal of playing against an AI rather than a human, I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thx!

TCS

[Bill Spight]

Well...I'm not yet ready to engage the Borg.

I'd prefer to first learn how to play well in the Old School way, when there were no entities extant on Earth who could beat the best humans. From there, maybe I'll engage the Borg, and maybe I won't.

Unless there's an AI that can TEACH, I'm just going to set that entire realm aside for now.

If you could help me understand the appeal of playing against an AI rather than a human, I would sincerely appreciate it.

Thx!

TCS

There is a lot of unlearning going on right now, about fuseki and joseki. If you want to study them, wait a few years for the new books to come out. Meanwhile, I think Takemiya's advice is good: Make the moves you want to play.

And remember, a lot of learning is caught, not taught, especially at beginning levels. For inspiration take a look at current pro and AI games.

[Chaosrider2808]

Life forever involves learning and unlearning things. Why would I expect this to be different? In any event, "waiting a few years" is not in my nature.

I worked for 20 years in the defense/aerospace industry, and I pretty regularly read "Aviation Week and Space Technology" cover to cover. In one article, an Air Force general was quoted as saying, "At some point you have to shoot the designers, and go into production!"

I'm ready to "go into production" on my current Go launch with the knowledge I either have or can fairly quickly acquire. The general's admonition is particularly appropriate if the Go technology (knowledge) is evolving rapidly. Do you really expect that knowledge to STABILIZE in a few years?

I didn't think so!

Good advice from Takemiya, and that's mostly what I do. But I'm also looking to improve what I WANT to do, with my ongoing studies.

I completely agree about a lot of learning getting caught. And yet, there's still a large role for teaching.

At the moment, I'm not looking for inspiration. I've already got plenty of that. Now, I'm looking for ways to learn better and quicker. From where I am now.



Thx!

TCS

[Gomoto]

My modern way of joseki learning:

Dont learn the old way.

If you play online you get wrecked by players with up to date josekis.

Only play 4-4 yourself to limit the josekis you have to learn.

Only approach 3-4 low to limit the josekis you have to learn (low is easier than high, you never need high)

Invade 3-3 early most of the time to limit josekis you have to learn. And learn the few times you have to play an approach move instead (very few times). You also learn some shinogi techniques this way, because you have to .

Review every single one of your games with leela zero (ELF) and learn the way you should have played your josekis in the first place.

If your opponent plays something obscure (not 4-4 or 3-4) enter 3-3 and review after the game (works 99% of the obscure games)

If your opponent plays tengen and mirror go, play mirror go yourself and take the free win and the laugh.

This way you learn modern fuseki and joseki fast and easy.

(this method is good enough for stable 2 Dan Fox )

[Gomoto]

for the fun of it anti tengen mirror - mirror go watch the josekis
(I start to play unreflected mirror go myself after move 64 , may the komi be with me)

[Chaosrider2808]

If I could find a local human, or a program in the alternative, that could and would TEACH me along the lines of that guidance, I'd love to give it a shot!

Meaning not the slightest disrespect to either you or your suggestions, a list of rules is not teaching. "Just go do it" is also not teaching.

I want to be TAUGHT, by either humans or programs that know more than I do. Humans when possible.

And I'm happy to TEACH anyone who knows less than I do.

Assuming there actually are any people that ignorant...



TCS

[Gomoto]

I am a teacher by the way (not Go, obviously), so dont teach me on teaching

For a more serious answer:
You asked about a way to LEARN faster in your last post.
I just wanted to reinstate how important it is in my opinion to learn modern (AI) josekis.

If you want a good teacher I recommend Yunguseng Dojang (, although it is online and not local)

[Chaosrider2808]

I wasn't trying to teach you. I was just pontificating about my view, which is a very different thing, and is an activity at which I generally succeed!



To be effective, a teaching relationship requires the consent of both the teacher and the student. But, since you're a teacher, you already know that.

For this purpose, online could work OK. As long as it's a TEACHING relationship, and not a PONTIFICATING relationship!



Thx!

TCS

[EdLee]

I am a teacher... so dont teach me on teaching

Sorry, non sequitur, logical fallacy.

( Teachers are only human. And to err is human.
Obviously, a bad teacher has a lot of room for improvement;
but even the "best" teachers in the world can still improve.
The improvement path is endless. )

[Bonobo]

I am a teacher […], so dont teach me on teaching […]

Reminds me of a time in the 1980s when I “had” a guru (I didn’t seek him, it simply happened, and thankfully he was a “no name guru”, not somebody to whom people flocked. His name was Harold Clayton, if you know about his whereabouts, I’d be thankful to know. I fear, however, that he isn’t alive anymore, though, as he was quite ill the last time I saw him.) … anyway, one thing he told me was this:

The student is the teacher’s teacher.

I always remembered that statement, and it was very helpful for me when I was a teacher/lecturer/instructor for design & print media production twenty years later.

[EdLee]

Hi Tom,

The student is the teacher’s teacher.

My teacher also said, "To teach is to learn."

「三人行，必有我師焉。」^(*)




_____
^(*) Confucius, not some fake Chinese proverb.

[Gomoto]

The proverb is probably a stub:

"My teacher also said, to teach is to learn ... how to cope with the students."



As you can see, not only my go skills are lacking.

[Gomoto]

An example how I study joseki with ELF:

forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15862&p=233429#p233429