Hi John,
Thank you very much for this great post.
After looking at your different examples, I could really feel something was integrated.
Are there tsumego books teaching with this approach?
Thanks again,
Martin
The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
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John Fairbairn
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
Part 2 here.
First, though, on the principle of spaced repetition, here are a few more practice problems of the basic tombstone tesuji pattern (simplex type - one technique). Black to play in all cases.
When it comes to duplex problems, where two techniques are involved in the main line (variations lines may of course involve some other techniques but we are talking of the flow of the problem), the techniques can come in either order (AB or BA) and could be any of the 50-odd easily identifiable techniques. But in practice one order tends to occur more often, and the paired technique tends to fall within a small sub-set. Both facts are useful to know as they aid the trust you have in applying templates rather than going: if he goes there, I go here, which tends to end in an expletive.
Clearly it is better if you have studied the other techniques in their simplex form first, but we'll gloss over that here.
Our first example involves a well known second technique.
Duplex problems are obviously harder then the "easy" simplex ones. Generally duplex problems cover a range of high kyu to low dan. Triplex questions also have a range, low dan to high dan, but can appear much simpler than that if you have absorbed the basic template of the simplex type and the common AB/BA associations of the duplex type.
I give just one example here - at the lower end of the range - but I hope this and the problems above are enough to show why this approach works so well.
To answer the question whether this approach to tsumego exists elsewhere, I have seen small portions of it, which is one reason why it could exist in bigger form. But the truth is, I don't think they bother with that because if you are a serious student you are expected to follow the proverb "Hear one, understand ten" (一を聞いて十を知る). THt is, go away and do the work yourself. I think I have shown that it is easy enough to do on your own. It's just a matter of collecting the examples and the counting up to three techniques. The collecting process itself is of course a form of spaced repetition, which implies it is necessary as well as useful.
If you want to try another technique for yourself (i.e. collecting and analysing it yourself), I'd recommend Rooster Standing On One Leg as examples are easy to find and it has very wide application in real play. One way to start may be to look at my Gateway To All Marvels (SmartGo e-book - I think) as it lists 50+ techniques with pointers to many example problems for each. The only thing it doesn't do is show the simplex/duplex/triplex analysis, and as these are classical problems it's a little on the hard side (i.e. most are duplex or triplex). But you have to do something a little more effortful than just read a book if you really want to learn.
First, though, on the principle of spaced repetition, here are a few more practice problems of the basic tombstone tesuji pattern (simplex type - one technique). Black to play in all cases.
When it comes to duplex problems, where two techniques are involved in the main line (variations lines may of course involve some other techniques but we are talking of the flow of the problem), the techniques can come in either order (AB or BA) and could be any of the 50-odd easily identifiable techniques. But in practice one order tends to occur more often, and the paired technique tends to fall within a small sub-set. Both facts are useful to know as they aid the trust you have in applying templates rather than going: if he goes there, I go here, which tends to end in an expletive.
Clearly it is better if you have studied the other techniques in their simplex form first, but we'll gloss over that here.
Our first example involves a well known second technique.
I give just one example here - at the lower end of the range - but I hope this and the problems above are enough to show why this approach works so well.
If you want to try another technique for yourself (i.e. collecting and analysing it yourself), I'd recommend Rooster Standing On One Leg as examples are easy to find and it has very wide application in real play. One way to start may be to look at my Gateway To All Marvels (SmartGo e-book - I think) as it lists 50+ techniques with pointers to many example problems for each. The only thing it doesn't do is show the simplex/duplex/triplex analysis, and as these are classical problems it's a little on the hard side (i.e. most are duplex or triplex). But you have to do something a little more effortful than just read a book if you really want to learn.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
Thank you so much for all of this, John. 
Small nit.
And another.
Small nit.
And another.
Last edited by Bill Spight on Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Bill Spight
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
Bravo!John Fairbairn wrote:If you want to try another technique for yourself (i.e. collecting and analysing it yourself), I'd recommend Rooster Standing On One Leg as examples are easy to find and it has very wide application in real play. One way to start may be to look at my Gateway To All Marvels (SmartGo e-book - I think) as it lists 50+ techniques with pointers to many example problems for each. The only thing it doesn't do is show the simplex/duplex/triplex analysis, and as these are classical problems it's a little on the hard side (i.e. most are duplex or triplex).
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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Tami
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
I can share my personal experience here in a useful way, I think.
Around 2002, I got it into my head that it would be a very good idea to do lots and lots of tsumego/tesuji exercises over and over again. I called it "force feeding". The result was that I have indeed become good at spotting key moves and tesuji. However - and this, I realise now with the benefit of 16 years' of hindsight, is what's been holding me back - I never bothered to get a sound understanding of the fundamentals. So, while I became adept at spotting moves in isolation, I did not acquire the ability to engineer the situations in which I could play such moves.
I would, for instance, do 30 or 40 problems in a short time and then wonder afterwards what exactly I had learned.
In light of reading John's account above, and in light of more recent experience, I feel able belatedly to correct myself.
Recently, I went through Davies's Life and Death carefully. It's been paying me back. Not so much in terms of killing many dragons, though that has happened, but in the more subtle sense that I can use the knowledge as a weapon. For instance, recognising a corner as L+2 means that I don't have to play there - it's alive. In the past, I might have spotted the killing/saving move if it got to a L+1 situation, but I would not have recognised the process leading up to that.
I have some pocket books that I brought back from my time living in Japan. I'm just now beginning to see their true value.
Here is an example from 三段合格の死活１５０題 (150 Life and Death Problems for 3 Dan Standard), published by the Nihon Kiin (author: Kanagawa Masaaki)
The rubric says if you can do it in 1 minute, then you're 1 kyu.
I never bothered to go through the steps I've just outlined back in 2012 or whenever I bought the book. Now I have, and I have the distinct sensation of actually having learned something.
Here is another example. What I find especially interesting here is that I think the book solution is wrong.
Anyway, my conclusion is that my old way of doing these problems was only helpful in a shallow way. You can make some progress by reading through likely moves and defences. However, if you think about each stage in terms of fundamental technique, then you get an altogether different appreciation of how the shapes relate to one another, and how you can use them effectively in a real game. It's all about learning how to spot what's going on under the surface. After all, it's not as though a strong player is just going to present you with a nice juicy bulky five or farmer's hat; you'll have to work hard to manouevre him into such a situation.
Around 2002, I got it into my head that it would be a very good idea to do lots and lots of tsumego/tesuji exercises over and over again. I called it "force feeding". The result was that I have indeed become good at spotting key moves and tesuji. However - and this, I realise now with the benefit of 16 years' of hindsight, is what's been holding me back - I never bothered to get a sound understanding of the fundamentals. So, while I became adept at spotting moves in isolation, I did not acquire the ability to engineer the situations in which I could play such moves.
I would, for instance, do 30 or 40 problems in a short time and then wonder afterwards what exactly I had learned.
In light of reading John's account above, and in light of more recent experience, I feel able belatedly to correct myself.
Recently, I went through Davies's Life and Death carefully. It's been paying me back. Not so much in terms of killing many dragons, though that has happened, but in the more subtle sense that I can use the knowledge as a weapon. For instance, recognising a corner as L+2 means that I don't have to play there - it's alive. In the past, I might have spotted the killing/saving move if it got to a L+1 situation, but I would not have recognised the process leading up to that.
I have some pocket books that I brought back from my time living in Japan. I'm just now beginning to see their true value.
Here is an example from 三段合格の死活１５０題 (150 Life and Death Problems for 3 Dan Standard), published by the Nihon Kiin (author: Kanagawa Masaaki)
The rubric says if you can do it in 1 minute, then you're 1 kyu.
Here is another example. What I find especially interesting here is that I think the book solution is wrong.
Last edited by Tami on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
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Tami
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
Tryss wrote:For your variation in the second problem,
Thanks, Tryss - I was desperately trying to write up my correction before somebody else beat me to it
Looks like we both arrived at the same conclusion.Learn the "tea-stealing" tesuji! Cho Chikun demonstrates here:
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Bill Spight
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
I think that this is a very useful post.Tami wrote:I can share my personal experience here in a useful way, I think.
Good point about the importance of fundamentals.However - and this, I realise now with the benefit of 16 years' of hindsight, is what's been holding me back - I never bothered to get a sound understanding of the fundamentals.
In high school I picked up a book by a professional basketball coach. The main thing that impressed my was that, even though he had a professional team, and a championship team to boot, at the start of every season's training, he drilled his players on the fundamentals.
IMO, that ability is above the level of fundamentals.So, while I became adept at spotting moves in isolation, I did not acquire the ability to engineer the situations in which I could play such moves.
Well worth repeating.Anyway, my conclusion is that my old way of doing these problems was only helpful in a shallow way. You can make some progress by reading through likely moves and defences. However, if you think about each stage in terms of fundamental technique, then you get an altogether different appreciation of how the shapes relate to one another, and how you can use them effectively in a real game. It's all about learning how to spot what's going on under the surface. After all, it's not as though a strong player is just going to present you with a nice juicy bulky five or farmer's hat; you'll have to work hard to manouevre him into such a situation.
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins
Visualize whirled peas.
Everything with love. Stay safe.
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dfan
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
I went through pretty much the same thought process as you, with one additional stop along the way:Tami wrote:
.This problem didn't activate the "three-space notcher" area of my brain because so much has happened already that one can just calculate. It would be interesting to try to come up with an earlier plausible real-life position that could lead to this one, though.
Thank you for the problem!
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tchan001
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Re: The practice of Tsumego - 2 questions
There is a fairly recent Chinese book devoted to Rooster Standing On One Leg published Jan 2018.John Fairbairn wrote: If you want to try another technique for yourself (i.e. collecting and analysing it yourself), I'd recommend Rooster Standing On One Leg as examples are easy to find and it has very wide application in real play.
金鸡独立
ISBN 9787500948698
There are 99 problems in the book. Unfortunately, the problems are not associated with difficulty levels.
https://www.amazon.cn/dp/B0788WSVWV/ref ... 1533008814
http://tchan001.wordpress.com
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Go is such a beautiful game.
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Go is such a beautiful game.
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instead of 6.